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Thread: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    The problem with insurance and insurance companies is that people don't pick their own. Their employer picks it. Under the current system in the US, there is very little competition in group health insurance that has anything to do with what is best from a consumer's POV. Although the comsumer has very little say in the insurance their employer selects, they are paying for it. It is a cost of employing a person.
    The employer is also a consumer, however. Its not just "Hey we have this one insurance company that you have to have". Most of the time the employer foots the bill for the group health insurance as well as the individual. Its a shared cost between the two. The employer makes a decision on which health insurance company to select from, based on what premium they are going to have to pay and what they can afford. They change insurers all the time, especially small businesses. So to say that there isn't competition, is slightly misleading as the employer does have a choice between competing health insurance companies. It is true that the individuals choice in this scenario is that they either take the group health plan, or opt out an purchase private insurance themselves, 100% out of pocket.
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Everyone has the right to health care, just as everyone has the right to a house and food and clothing.

    The government exists to protect that right -- to make sure that people are not denied those things based on race, sex, religion, etc.

    The government does NOT exist to provide you with the means to exercise those, or any other, rights.
    So based on waht you wrote, you're one of those that would turn your back on someone who needs healthcare, but does not have the money to pay for it. Is that correct?
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    So based on waht you wrote, you're one of those that would turn your back on someone who needs healthcare, but does not have the money to pay for it. Is that correct?
    Me, personally? Like if someone came up to me in that situatioin?
    Maybe, maybe not. Depends on a lot of things.

    What's that have to do with what I said?

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I do not agree that he is using fear, I think that this country finally has a that president is finally willing to call a spade a spade. Healthcare costs are out of control and action must be taken.

    Obama is simply doing just that, acting on the things that must be done.

    I can only see improvements to the healthcare system result of all of this, as all sides are at the table.
    I'll give you that he's calling a spade a spade. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what that means or how that plays into a full deck. Everyone knows that we have cost overruns. But he's not attempting to fix the issue. Instead he's just throwing money at the problem as a patch. He provides no support to the actual fixes.

    Doing things to attempt to fix a problem is a noble thing and looks good. But doing the wrong thing can make it worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground
    See, I'm one of those that view healthcare as a right. Your analogy fails miserably because like you, I don't agree that a car and house are a right. If someone is in dire need of a doctor, I could not morally allow that NOT to happen.
    I'm sorry but its your analogy that fails miserably. Ethically doctors can't refuse to treat life threatening conditions which don't put them at risk. Granted, transplant boards can still decide to let someone die by refusing them a new organ due to need and pre-conditions. But we aren't talking about treatment. We're talking about PAYING for the treatment.

    Showing up to the county hospital gets you fixed up. Its the bill they send you afterwards that is the issue here. Somehow the we've got it in our heads that FREE health care is a right. I blame the Euro's and their slowly disintegrating socialized health care programs.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or its gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Right.

    So IT IS a right. Aint that the fundamental root of it all?

    So change your system, and save yourselves a ton of administrative costs. It's your opportunity to do it better than anywhere else in the world, because you have the luxury of taking notes from all other industrialized countries. This is why I think Obama is moving way too fast.
    The hippocratic oath, so far as I know, is not covered or discussed in the Constitution, therefore it is not a right, but rather a declaration from within the medical community. UHC is not needed for them to uphold their Hippocratic oath.

    Also I'd like to hear the argument that a UHC system would be more efficient in the delivery of healthcare to individuals in a non-life threatening situation, than the payor system. And why do people assume the US will do it better? Have you ever been here in the US, to fill out paperowrk for any government related benefit? Its crazy the amount of paper work one has to go through. I refuse to go to the VA hospital system for just that reason. My private hospital delivers superior care, with quicker efficiency than the government one I would have access to. During active duty military service, I basically had what amounts to UHC. I didn't have to have any insurance, but it took me 4 months before i could get in to see about getting a contact prescription. The next time I needed one, I just went to an eye doctor and paid out of pocket and had my contacts that day. I've been on both sides of the issue, and the private industry far outpaces the government one here in America. Hell, they even have to refer some military members out to private hospitals, because they don't have the equipment to treat some of the things that need to be treated. I know Canadians go down to the Rochester Clinic in Minnesota, and pay out of pocket, for the expediency their government cannot provide. If we adopt a UHC system, where are you guys going to go for expedient care on non-life threatening issues? Cause we ain't going to have it anymore.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    The employer is also a consumer, however. Its not just "Hey we have this one insurance company that you have to have". Most of the time the employer foots the bill for the group health insurance as well as the individual. Its a shared cost between the two. The employer makes a decision on which health insurance company to select from, based on what premium they are going to have to pay and what they can afford. They change insurers all the time, especially small businesses. So to say that there isn't competition, is slightly misleading as the employer does have a choice between competing health insurance companies. It is true that the individuals choice in this scenario is that they either take the group health plan, or opt out an purchase private insurance themselves, 100% out of pocket.
    Of course the employer has a choice but they rarely look at the payment tendencies of the insurance companies they are considering. They are looking primarily at the cost vs the listed benefits.

    If one insurance company gets the businesss because they have lower costs because they are slow pay or deny claims frequently, the employer only gets concerned when their high value employees get pissed because a doctor they want to see will not accept that insurance.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    I'll give you that he's calling a spade a spade. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what that means or how that plays into a full deck. Everyone knows that we have cost overruns. But he's not attempting to fix the issue. Instead he's just throwing money at the problem as a patch. He provides no support to the actual fixes.

    Doing things to attempt to fix a problem is a noble thing and looks good. But doing the wrong thing can make it worse.
    Explain to me how you feel that he is only throwing money at the problem please. From what I have understood, he has called a committee of representatives from all sides in order to come-up with the best solutions to the problems plaguing healthcare.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Of course the employer has a choice but they rarely look at the payment tendencies of the insurance companies they are considering. They are looking primarily at the cost vs the listed benefits.

    If one insurance company gets the businesss because they have lower costs because they are slow pay or deny claims frequently, the employer only gets concerned when their high value employees get pissed because a doctor they want to see will not accept that insurance.
    Well the market works in that favor as well. If the claims issue is as bad as you say it could be(and it does happen), then the employer can change companies at any time, including changing back to the other provider that they may have liked better. There is nothing stopping an employer from changing insurance companies, whenever they want to. For any business, its up to them to decide whats most important, and they need to have the flexibility to change whenever they need to, when circumstances arise that affect their ability to do business.

    But there is one thing I would like to see wiped out. The idea behind preferred providers. I say if you have an insurance plan, from a reputable provider(insurance companies are rated by AM Best), then there should be no change in your deductible or co-pay requirements. It shouldn't matter which doctor or hospital you go to, and the regional preferences of health insurance companies just doesn't make sense to me. Why should one pay for health coverage, and then be penalized for using it somewhere other than one certain hospital system?
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Explain to me how you feel that he is only throwing money at the problem please. From what I have understood, he has called a committee of representatives from all sides in order to come-up with the best solutions to the problems plaguing healthcare.
    Take a good look at his "committee". Also note that he already has already put forth his future health care initiatives without needing such a "committee". His ideology is going to conflict with what needs to be done for competitive health care.

    Socialized health care is his goal and that requires throwing lots of money at the problem. But the removal of any patient "say so" or castrating malpractice suits almost completely won't go over well with his liberal buddies. I'm looking forward to when they get to the part about when they put "pain" on the lowest of low priorities for treatment like they do in other nations.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or its gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Take a good look at his "committee". Also note that he already has already put forth his future health care initiatives without needing such a "committee". His ideology is going to conflict with what needs to be done for competitive health care.

    Socialized health care is his goal and that requires throwing lots of money at the problem. But the removal of any patient "say so" or castrating malpractice suits almost completely won't go over well with his liberal buddies. I'm looking forward to when they get to the part about when they put "pain" on the lowest of low priorities for treatment like they do in other nations.

    I do not see what it is you are seeing, but tell me then, how do you think healthcare should be remedied. If it continues as is, then companies will no longer be capable of providing their employees coverage, and no one can afford the rates on their own.

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