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Thread: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    What the heck do you think insurance is? It is a pool of money that people pay into. The ones that get sick use other peoples money the one's that don't don't use the money.
    Well people that have a lower risk factor insurance, in any kind of insurance, get charged a lower premium. Do you think the government would tax the unhealthy more than they would the healthy?
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    [QUOTE=Harry Guerrilla;1057950995]Your health is a bit more important than purchasing a television or choosing what color to paint your house.

    That is why people think about it.

    I don't understand why people are so willing to turn over heath care to government, when government hardly does anything right.

    Can you name a successful program that government does right that everyone uses?
    <Can you name a successful program that government does right that everyone uses?>= Medicare, not everyone but a lot.

    Nothing is being forced on anyone. Obama has said that anyone who is happy with his or her health insurance will be able to do nothing. In this case doing nothing is their choice of keeping what they have.




    It is a significant difference though.

    If you want to not use a health insurance plan you can.

    If you want to self insure you can.

    If someone wants to come up with a new business model to address health related expenses they can and people can voluntarily use it.

    There is a difference between voluntary socialism and forced socialism.

    In other words your looking for a choice eh? That’s exactly what Obama is proposing as for as I know. You will be able to choose if you want something similar to Medicare, or a private insurance. What is wrong with having private insurance companies competing against Medicare? I thought that was the capitalist way. Cant have socialism now can we?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I think if Obama sent you a personal check for a million dollars, you would find a reason to complain about it.
    That's what you get for thinking.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You must not know about all the social programs to help poor people then.
    Yes and in every other developed nation, health care is one of them. The difference is that it doesn't just serve the poor, but rich and middle classes alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The federal government pays for food, higher education, job assistance, childcare, states and local governments in a lot of places offer free language training.
    Only if you qualify. Not everyone does. Not everyone who applies for a loan gets one. Not everyone who asks for food stamps gets them. A minimum wage job is meaningless when you have a long-term illness that requires treatment and an insurance company won't give you a plan because of your pre-existing condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Racial biases are largely extinct and hardly play any role.
    I disagree, but this is another debate altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I never said it was easy. Do you think all the rich people got that way so easily?
    Depends on the rich person. A small percentage of Americans hold most of American wealth... my guess would be that a lot of it is old money passed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If they had it before hand it wouldn't be a problem. It's called balancing risk.

    **** happens and if you take a risk and fail there is no one to blame but yourself.

    UHC will restrict access because of over consumption in the end its like being uninsured.
    I'm not clear on your meaning here. UHC gives you treatment regardless if it's a new condition or not. It might not cover every little thing, but it will at least cover specialists and clinical/hospital procedures. That saves people a lot of hardship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Insurance companies are the way they are because of the government.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not blaming subscribers, they actually bought the insurance.
    I even mean subscribers of UHC. You keep putting the blame on them... it's their fault they are sick, it's their fault they don't have insurance, it's their fault they don't have a job and can't afford insurance, etc etc. It's not so cut and dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If I had $100 to lay down on a bet that nearly every single person who doesn't have health insurance has cable or sat tv I would so do it.
    A bet is unnecessary, just a link to prove your assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why should people throw away their hard earned money to support a socialist institution when they labored so long to get it?
    How much of their money is really being used to support UHC? A lot of the funds going to UHC are a result of reallocated government spending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Piss poor planing. Life is not a fairy tale, it can be cruel and people should plan for unexpected situations.
    I guess because I come from a country that is comparatively socialists, I don't understand your viewpoint at all. I don't support universal socialism with everything, but with health care I do. Health and education are the most important factors to a developed society, and if 40 million don't have access, something needs to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    To me it makes perfect sense. People should be held accountable for their decisions.

    If you enable crappy decision making it will never change.
    I don't think it's a crappy decision, but a wise one. The only thing I'm worried about is how it will be implemented. Since America has never had socialized health care before, it will be an uphill battle to get it started. I think it is worth giving a chance.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Yes and in every other developed nation, health care is one of them. The difference is that it doesn't just serve the poor, but rich and middle classes alike.



    Only if you qualify. Not everyone does. Not everyone who applies for a loan gets one. Not everyone who asks for food stamps gets them. A minimum wage job is meaningless when you have a long-term illness that requires treatment and an insurance company won't give you a plan because of your pre-existing condition.



    I disagree, but this is another debate altogether.



    Depends on the rich person. A small percentage of Americans hold most of American wealth... my guess would be that a lot of it is old money passed down.



    I'm not clear on your meaning here. UHC gives you treatment regardless if it's a new condition or not. It might not cover every little thing, but it will at least cover specialists and clinical/hospital procedures. That saves people a lot of hardship.



    I agree.



    I even mean subscribers of UHC. You keep putting the blame on them... it's their fault they are sick, it's their fault they don't have insurance, it's their fault they don't have a job and can't afford insurance, etc etc. It's not so cut and dry.



    A bet is unnecessary, just a link to prove your assumption.



    How much of their money is really being used to support UHC? A lot of the funds going to UHC are a result of reallocated government spending.



    I guess because I come from a country that is comparatively socialists, I don't understand your viewpoint at all. I don't support universal socialism with everything, but with health care I do. Health and education are the most important factors to a developed society, and if 40 million don't have access, something needs to change.



    I don't think it's a crappy decision, but a wise one. The only thing I'm worried about is how it will be implemented. Since America has never had socialized health care before, it will be an uphill battle to get it started. I think it is worth giving a chance.
    F O S ! We have been handing out free health care for many decades. Anyone under age 18 ...,"will not be refused health care ,regardless of ability to pay". The VA health care system is socialized medicine. The health care delivered to the Mexicans arriveing by the millions and haveing babies by the tens of millions,( so it seems), is socialized medicine. Now I recommend that all of you panick stricken right and left wing nut cases take pill.

  6. #126
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    <Can you name a successful program that government does right that everyone uses?>= Medicare, not everyone but a lot.

    Nothing is being forced on anyone. Obama has said that anyone who is happy with his or her health insurance will be able to do nothing. In this case doing nothing is their choice of keeping what they have.

    Medicare is vastly underfunded.
    In fact out Medicare and Social Security, Medicares deficit of funds is humongous compared to Social Security.

    I don't know about you but that isn't successful to me.

    When baby boomers start to retire we will soon see that the premiums collected won't be enough to provide the services promised.

    It is now a welfare program.

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    In other words your looking for a choice eh? That’s exactly what Obama is proposing as for as I know. You will be able to choose if you want something similar to Medicare, or a private insurance. What is wrong with having private insurance companies competing against Medicare? I thought that was the capitalist way. Cant have socialism now can we?
    Government health care is subsidized by taxpayers.

    That is a totally unfair market advantage to private health insurance companies.

    On top of that people will have to confront the fact do I want to pay more out my principals or do I want to get services for what my taxes cover.

    Its a way to trap people into their system.
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Yes and in every other developed nation, health care is one of them. The difference is that it doesn't just serve the poor, but rich and middle classes alike.
    Yea but why should it service the rich and the middle class?

    I mean they can already pay for those things. Thats like going around your elbow to get to your ass. Its a wasted motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Only if you qualify. Not everyone does. Not everyone who applies for a loan gets one. Not everyone who asks for food stamps gets them. A minimum wage job is meaningless when you have a long-term illness that requires treatment and an insurance company won't give you a plan because of your pre-existing condition.
    Not everyone should get a loan. If someone can't manage their finances they should not get any loans.

    Most people who want food stamps can get them. Its not hard unless your an achiever.

    Planning for sickness is part of being an adult and if you can't get past minimum wage as an adult something is seriously wrong with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I disagree, but this is another debate altogether.
    I've had the luxury of living in and around many people of many different backgrounds.

    Now there is some racial prejudice from people but I'd like you to entertain the thought that it isn't just from white people.

    People of other ethnic back grounds are just as prejudice as some white folks are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Depends on the rich person. A small percentage of Americans hold most of American wealth... my guess would be that a lot of it is old money passed down.
    I disagree. The faces of new millionaires changes all the time.

    Some once the earn their magic number stop working because they have all they need others still go at it and loose what they earned.

    Some keep earning and earning. Remember rich people get richer because they keep doing the things that made them rich in the first place.

    The same can be said for poor people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm not clear on your meaning here. UHC gives you treatment regardless if it's a new condition or not. It might not cover every little thing, but it will at least cover specialists and clinical/hospital procedures. That saves people a lot of hardship.
    UHC gives power to government officials who don't know you or your particular circumstances.

    It can be used against you if they do know you.

    The real practical reason I don't like it is because it does not provide more access to health care.

    It's the three stooges effect. Everyone trying to run through the door at the same time, which causes a delay in services not seen in America.

    I can go to my doctor tomorrow and get a referrel to see a specialist the day after I see my primary care doctor.

    Can you do that with the UHC systems in place now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I even mean subscribers of UHC. You keep putting the blame on them... it's their fault they are sick, it's their fault they don't have insurance, it's their fault they don't have a job and can't afford insurance, etc etc. It's not so cut and dry.
    Its not that they are sick that I'm upset about its the facts that they don't plan for its possibility.

    It is their fault they don't have a job though and it is their fault they aren't trying harder to get insurance for themselves.

    You have to plan ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    A bet is unnecessary, just a link to prove your assumption.
    I can't provide a link because there has probably never been a study done.

    All I have is anecdotal evidence.

    I've been to many, many project homes and one thing is a constant all the homes had cable and satellite and a huge number of them had at least a big screen tv.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    How much of their money is really being used to support UHC? A lot of the funds going to UHC are a result of reallocated government spending.
    I'm not sure the exact funds but it doesn't really matter.

    No one should be forced to pay for someone else's terrible planning decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I guess because I come from a country that is comparatively socialists, I don't understand your viewpoint at all. I don't support universal socialism with everything, but with health care I do. Health and education are the most important factors to a developed society, and if 40 million don't have access, something needs to change.
    It's not our difference in countries but our difference in thinking.

    I believe that most social services are reverse Darwinism.
    I believe that the individual is more important than the whole and makes the best decisions for themselves.

    You should also understand that what people learn in U.S. government schools is not about education. Government schools were founded to manage citizens and to provide basic working skills to the populace.

    It is not about educating people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I don't think it's a crappy decision, but a wise one. The only thing I'm worried about is how it will be implemented. Since America has never had socialized health care before, it will be an uphill battle to get it started. I think it is worth giving a chance.
    It is not wise option in my opinion because there is simply not enough services to cover the whole population like people pretend.

    I'm sorry that I get a bit derogatory but I'm very impassioned about these things.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You are right but what about those that they don't know that need to get in just as much.

    In the U.S. they get served rather quickly and the doctors realize after the fact how necessary it was for them to be treated.

    In countries with UHC they don't and it could make them worse waiting. It also keeps people with say knee surgeries from getting treatment and getting back to work quickly causing the economy to suffer for lack of productivity.

    The flaws with UHC or NHC or whatever anyone wants to call it are numerous and worse to the economy than our current system.
    I haven't noticed any of that...

    Perhaps because we live in a small country and nowhere is it like inner city LA with gang infested shoot outs and beatings, muggings, million car crashes, etc etc... people get in and get out just fine. No problem and no work issues.

    Conversely, I thought that the US System was fine... but we faced some major issues in it when a time of need arose. Our daughter almost died as a result. I know many many people that faced issues like us, ones that just get brushed under the carpet so that the US system is good and UHC sucks. Not that you are doing this, it is just something that I find almost universal with people that are trying to bash UHC. I used to do it, to a degree, but I see the difference now... *shrugs*
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  9. #129
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I haven't noticed any of that...

    Perhaps because we live in a small country and nowhere is it like inner city LA with gang infested shoot outs and beatings, muggings, million car crashes, etc etc... people get in and get out just fine. No problem and no work issues.

    Conversely, I thought that the US System was fine... but we faced some major issues in it when a time of need arose. Our daughter almost died as a result. I know many many people that faced issues like us, ones that just get brushed under the carpet so that the US system is good and UHC sucks. Not that you are doing this, it is just something that I find almost universal with people that are trying to bash UHC. I used to do it, to a degree, but I see the difference now... *shrugs*
    I'm not making excuses but I've read things about Sweden and the U.K. primarily.

    So there may be differences in the system your talking about than the ones I am.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Sad. Really sad.
    You do realize that you are ripping on yourself... right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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