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Thread: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

  1. #41
    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    If you cited Green Peace and Green Peace was not citing anything peer reviewed in their claims, then yes I would be equally suspect.

    You cited a propaganda cite that claims that we are in for mass power shortages this summer because of environmental regulations. I doubt the folks at the national academy of sciences or any of the major scientific societies have bother to address that kind of lunatic drivel.

    The fact is, for 40 years now we have been hearing industry lobbyists cry doom and gloom over environmental regulations.
    It's not just coal/oil/gas lobbyists who are crying doom and gloom over environmental regulations. We're now hearing much the same from the 'clean energy' industry:

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    Citing Need for Assessments, U.S. Freezes Solar Energy Projects

    DENVER — Faced with a surge in the number of proposed solar power plants, the federal government has placed a moratorium on new solar projects on public land until it studies their environmental impact, which is expected to take about two years.

    “It doesn’t make any sense,” said Holly Gordon, vice president for legislative and regulatory affairs for Ausra, a solar thermal energy company in Palo Alto, Calif. “The Bureau of Land Management land has some of the best solar resources in the world. This could completely stunt the growth of the industry.”

    “I think it’s good to have a plan,” Mr. Cox said, “but I don’t think we need to stop development in its tracks.”
    New York Times

    Don't get me wrong, I'm no proponent of turning our nation into a wasteland. But I think the trend has moved dangerously in the wrong direction for the time being.

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 03-05-09 at 01:08 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Yes, species have always out competed each other and some survive and some go extinct. Its just what happens in the natural world. However, we human's have introduced a "market distortion" into the natural world. As a direct result of human activity, species extinction over the last century has accelerated to 1000 times the natural rate. At the rate we are going, half the biodiversity on earth will be gone by the end of this century.

    This represents a theft from future generations.

    Another example of this is how we are rapidly changing the land. In the name of "Clean Coal", we are taking entire mountains in the Appalachians and turning them from this:



    Into this:



    In the end it is nothing less than theft from future generations, in this case, we are stealing entire mountains from thousands of future generations all in our attempts to maintain our lifestyle in this generation.
    Here's what coal land looks like after being reclaimed. Nothing wrong with it. We have 12,000 elk here in Kentucky now and there haven't been any here in over 100 years, all on reclaimed coal land in east Kentucky.

    How many species have become extinct in the past 50 years??


    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  3. #43
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Here's what coal land looks like after being reclaimed. Nothing wrong with it. We have 12,000 elk here in Kentucky now and there haven't been any here in over 100 years, all on reclaimed coal land in east Kentucky.

    How many species have become extinct in the past 50 years??

    Mountain top removal has destroyed around 1200 miles of streams, and destroyed forests on around 300 square miles of land. Yes, the land is reclaimed once the mining is finished, but the land is never capable of supporting the biodiversity it did prior to mining. There is more to a forest than a thin layer of top soil spread over bedrock.

    As to current extinction rates, since science has only identified around 10% of the world's plant and animal species, extinction rates can only be estimated. However, most estimates put current extinction rates at around 50 to 150 species a day, or around .2 to .6% of species a year being lost (which is a 1000 times the natural rate).

    Biodiversity for Development CD-ROM

    Most of these are plant species and insects, but just the same, the more species that are lost in an ecosystem the greater the pressure on the remaining species. Moreover, that species thats lost could have been the next cancer treatment, or parkinson's drug.

    Look, I am not against energy exploration. We need the energy. Environmental protection and preservation depends upon a strong economy. I am not against coal mining either. We need the coal. Some of the best fishing within a 100 miles of here are the old strip pit lakes. There is however a huge environmental cost to mining and some types of energy exploration, so we should, just like we always have, require an environmental assessment on leases so that environmental cost can be weighed against the benefits of energy exploration on a case by case basis.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #44
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Mountain top removal has destroyed around 1200 miles of streams, and destroyed forests on around 300 square miles of land. Yes, the land is reclaimed once the mining is finished, but the land is never capable of supporting the biodiversity it did prior to mining. There is more to a forest than a thin layer of top soil spread over bedrock.
    There's only a thin layer of soil over bedrock anywhere in Kentucky. The trees learn to put roots down into cracks in the rock.

    As to current extinction rates, since science has only identified around 10% of the world's plant and animal species, extinction rates can only be estimated. However, most estimates put current extinction rates at around 50 to 150 species a day, or around .2 to .6% of species a year being lost (which is a 1000 times the natural rate).

    Biodiversity for Development CD-ROM

    Most of these are plant species and insects, but just the same, the more species that are lost in an ecosystem the greater the pressure on the remaining species. Moreover, that species thats lost could have been the next cancer treatment, or parkinson's drug.

    Look, I am not against energy exploration. We need the energy. Environmental protection and preservation depends upon a strong economy. I am not against coal mining either. We need the coal. Some of the best fishing within a 100 miles of here are the old strip pit lakes. There is however a huge environmental cost to mining and some types of energy exploration, so we should, just like we always have, require an environmental assessment on leases so that environmental cost can be weighed against the benefits of energy exploration on a case by case basis.
    Actually, there have been only 60 documented extinctions of life since 1500 and 27 in the past 20 years. That's according to the Red List published by the IUCN.

    With that said, I completely agree that mines of any type, either surface or subsurface should not be allowed to damage our streams and wildlife. Runoff from mines can contaminate streams. Several streams here in KY with native Brook Trout have been endangered by mine runoff.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    There's only a thin layer of soil over bedrock anywhere in Kentucky. The trees learn to put roots down into cracks in the rock.



    Actually, there have been only 60 documented extinctions of life since 1500 and 27 in the past 20 years. That's according to the Red List published by the IUCN.

    With that said, I completely agree that mines of any type, either surface or subsurface should not be allowed to damage our streams and wildlife. Runoff from mines can contaminate streams. Several streams here in KY with native Brook Trout have been endangered by mine runoff.
    Correction on your IUCN numbers. The reason why the number of documented extinctions of life is so much lower than the estimated number of extinctions is that from a biologist perspective, we live in a largely unknown planet. At best, only 10% of the world's species are even known to science so far. Basically, right now we have only documented most of the big stuff.

    From the IUCN:

    FACTS
    • 16,928 plant and animal
    species are known to be
    threatened with extinction.
    This may be a gross
    underestimate because less
    than 3% of the world’s 1.9
    million described species
    have been assessed for the
    IUCN Red List of
    Threatened Species.

    • Only 1.9 million species
    have been described out of
    an estimated 13-14 million
    species that exist.

    • In the last 500 years,
    human activity is known to
    have forced 869 species to
    extinction (or extinction in
    the wild).

    • One in four mammals and
    one in eight birds face a
    high risk of extinction in the
    near future.

    • One in three amphibians
    and almost half of all
    tortoises and freshwater
    turtles are threatened.

    • The current species
    extinction rate is estimated
    to be between 1,000 and
    10,000 times higher than
    the natural or ‘background’
    rate.

    • The total number of known
    threatened animal species
    has increased from 5,205 to
    8,462 since 1996.

    http://cmsdata.iucn.org/downloads/sp...on_05_2007.pdf
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Correction on your IUCN numbers. The reason why the number of documented extinctions of life is so much lower than the estimated number of extinctions is that from a biologist perspective, we live in a largely unknown planet. At best, only 10% of the world's species are even known to science so far. Basically, right now we have only documented most of the big stuff.

    http://cmsdata.iucn.org/downloads/sp...on_05_2007.pdf
    I don't doubt the numbers, but you can't count your chickens if you don't know where they are.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    If we're really going to do something about preserving our precious natural wildlife, we'd better put a stop to all the growth in Africa.

    If we were to conduct a worldwide poll, there's little doubt in my mind that the most precious and valued of endangered species live there...

    Gorillas
    Chimpanzees
    Black Rhinoceros
    Gazelle
    Zebras
    Cheetahs
    Lemurs
    Wild Dogs
    Crocodiles
    Ostriches

    The list goes on... And every new highway, fence, power transmission line, waterway, and hospital that gets built in Africa only contributes further to the demise of these treasures.

    We haggle quite a bit over snail darters and other relatively obscure wildlife in the U.S. Meanwhile, the really valuable and precious animals are being destroyed by development on another continent. And make no mistake about it. Africa cannot have both. It cannot become a first world thriving agricultural and industrial state and at the same time preserve its habitats... any more than it would be possible for herds of wild buffalo to roam freely across the Western Plains in modern America.
    The National Bison Association keeps a record of all public and private herds.
    Their breakdown of the bison population is as follow:

    Privately owned bison - U.S. - 244,000
    Privately owned bison - Canada - 100,000
    Public herds - U.S. - 10,000
    Public herds - Canada - 3,000
    Native American herds - 7,000
    Bison in zoos - 750
    Bison outside U.S & Canada - 300
    Google Answers Wild Buffalo


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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    If we're really going to do something about preserving our precious natural wildlife, we'd better put a stop to all the growth in Africa.

    If we were to conduct a worldwide poll, there's little doubt in my mind that the most precious and valued of endangered species live there...

    Gorillas
    Chimpanzees
    Black Rhinoceros
    Gazelle
    Zebras
    Cheetahs
    Lemurs
    Wild Dogs
    Crocodiles
    Ostriches

    The list goes on... And every new highway, fence, power transmission line, waterway, and hospital that gets built in Africa only contributes further to the demise of these treasures.

    We haggle quite a bit over snail darters and other relatively obscure wildlife in the U.S. Meanwhile, the really valuable and precious animals are being destroyed by development on another continent. And make no mistake about it. Africa cannot have both. It cannot become a first world thriving agricultural and industrial state and at the same time preserve its habitats... any more than it would be possible for herds of wild buffalo to roam freely across the Western Plains in modern America.
    Google Answers Wild Buffalo

    A lot of environmental and wildlife organizations are doing a lot of work in Africa.

    However, your argument is like saying that since air pollution is so bad in China, we should not worry about it here.

    That said, over population certainly is the biggest threat to the environment worldwide.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  9. #49
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    A lot of environmental and wildlife organizations are doing a lot of work in Africa.

    However, your argument is like saying that since air pollution is so bad in China, we should not worry about it here.

    That said, over population certainly is the biggest threat to the environment worldwide.
    I hate to say it but the only way we can curb over population is to allow malaria and the other diseases to remain in Africa.

    We would also need to stop the feed the children programs to.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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