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Thread: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Its a false dichotomy to argue that we have to chose between environmental assessments and your being able to run your microwave, cool your house, and so on. We have required these assessments for over 30 years now, yet we still have coal, oil, and so on.
    And for the past 30 years our population grows and new production capabilities are stalled, we're placing an increasing strain on our electric power grid:

    U.S. baseload generation capacity reserve margins "have declined precipitously to 17 percent in 2007, from 30-40 percent in the early 1990s," according to the study. A 12-15 percent capacity reserve margin is the minimum required to ensure reliability and stability of the nationís electricity system. Compounding this capacity deficiency, the projected U.S. demand in the next ten years is forecast to grow by 18 percent, far exceeding the projected eight percent growth in baseload generation capacity between now and 2016.
    NextGen Blackout Study

    We need lots of new energy and we need it soon. If people think the current financial crisis is bad... wait until we flip our light switches and nothing happens. That's when we'll be rioting.

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 03-04-09 at 05:15 PM.

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    And for the past 30 years our population grows and new production capabilities are stalled, we're placing an increasing strain on our electric power grid:

    NextGen Blackout Study

    We need lots of new energy and we need it soon.

    You are talking about our antiquated power grid. Thats an infrastructure issue. Environmental regulations are not standing in the way of improving our energy grid, its simply the lack of political will and private sector resources.

    The issue being discussed is the requirement of an environmental assessment on public lands before energy exploration.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Basically what this seems to come down to is, do we wreck the environment in the search for fossil fuels or do we focus on alternatives?

    Wind, Solar, and Hemp would nearly put the petrochemical companies right out of business so we must not talk about them, instead lets talk about how silly it is to protect the striped furry pond frog...

    Someone said the actions of Bush and Obama are both wrong. If the guy next door steals your kids bicycle and you go take it back, who is wrong again?

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    You are talking about our antiquated power grid. Thats an infrastructure issue. Environmental regulations are not standing in the way of improving our energy grid, its simply the lack of political will and private sector resources.

    The issue being discussed is the requirement of an environmental assessment on public lands before energy exploration.
    Perhaps you need to re-read the study I provided. Environmental issues are very clearly slowing down the generation of new power capability.
    The study also presented a survey of political developments and trends that amount to "structural political barriers being erected to system reliability." It pointed to the fact that "environmental activist groups" are now:

    * Suing to block the construction of virtually every single baseload coal-fired power plant, in spite of advanced environmental technologies these plants would deploy.

    * Gearing up to block construction of any baseload nuclear power plants across the West.

    * Suing or protesting virtually every proposed lease on public lands in the Rocky Mountains for natural gas drilling.

    * Working to slow or stop the completion of the two main multi-year, stakeholder-based transmission corridor processes that both Democrats and Republicans in Congress approved as part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005.

    * Pushing for additional endangered species designations, which will make siting and construction of both power plants and transmission lines difficult.

    * Pressuring government leaders to limit access by larger, baseload technologies to the region's high-voltage transmission grid and, instead proposing to artificially favor non-baseload, intermittent power facilities that will (at some point) further stress the reliability of the entire Western grid.
    NextGen Blackout Study


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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Perhaps you need to re-read the study I provided. Environmental issues are very clearly slowing down the generation of new power capability.
    NextGen Blackout Study

    You are quoting an industry lobby site, not the National Academy of Sciences.

    NextGen Energy Council - SourceWatch

    Public land is our land. Its authoritarian to remove public input from its management. If the taxpayers that own a national forest or blm land do not want a gas well on it, then its in their rights as owners of that common resource to not allow it.

    I am not saying there are not abuses, but we should address the abuses, not just throw out the law and its protections as the industry wants us to do. America is not just a way of life, even more so its a land, a land that we should take steps to protect and preserve when possible.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 03-04-09 at 05:49 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    That seems to be more and more incorrect is the idea that it's all about the economy versus environment. That it becomes more and more clear that todays dependency on fossil fuel is not dependable. Then the demand for oil is stadily increasing while the supply side can't keep up. If it wasn't for oil USA would have be so costly involved in the ME mess. That is also a security threath to the western world to be that dependent on fossiel fuel. That if you USA and the rest of the western world had realise that earlier new better technology could have emerged quicker.

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    First of all, we are a part of the natural process. To say we introduce the unnatural, is erroneous. Unless you believe us created by a supernatural being, our evolution to this point is how the earth itself has shaped us. What we are doing is within our natural rights.
    We are supposed to be trying to send future generations out into space, to spread our species amongst the stars. That should be the gift we give them above all others.
    So we shouldn't evolve our use of the environment since we are able to shape it? Just because we can destroy something doesn't mean we should. We've evolved a brain that allows us to contemplate our actions instead of acting on our impulses or our baser instincts. The fact is that we only harm ourselves and our progeny when we ignore our environmental impact.

    In the 2 pictures, which would you rather leave to your children? I live in the Appalachian Chain, and we hike in the Blue Ridge Mountains... it would be a shame if my son or grand kids couldn't do the same.

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    You are quoting an industry lobby site, not the National Academy of Sciences.
    That's true. Do you have data from the National Academy of Sciences contradicting the claims made by the industry lobby?

    And I'm curious, if I were to cite a report by an environmental lobby group, would that be equally as suspect?


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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    That's true. Do you have data from the National Academy of Sciences contradicting the claims made by the industry lobby?

    And I'm curious, if I were to cite a report by an environmental lobby group, would that be equally as suspect?

    If you cited Green Peace and Green Peace was not citing anything peer reviewed in their claims, then yes I would be equally suspect.

    You cited a propaganda cite that claims that we are in for mass power shortages this summer because of environmental regulations. I doubt the folks at the national academy of sciences or any of the major scientific societies have bother to address that kind of lunatic drivel.

    The fact is, for 40 years now we have been hearing industry lobbyists cry doom and gloom over environmental regulations.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    Oh I'm sorry did I post mine after the other one?

    I apologize.
    No, you were first. I put that "train left the station" picture in Dana's thread cause he was late to the game. Tall merged the threads.
    *insert profound statement here*

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