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Thread: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What you propose, although I do agree with it on a voluntary personal basis, leads itself to abuse.

    When a property owner decides he/she wants to develop an apartment complex and the locals don't want them to they can use the Endangered Species Act to at least delay or stop someone from doing so.

    It gives power to someone else over your property. That is wrong especially when your hard earned resources were spent getting it.
    I agree with you on the potential for abuse. However, environmental preservation represents a Market Failure. In most cases there is little incentive to preserve the environment or biodiversity for future generations at the costs of profit. So there has to be some way of doing this outside of just the pure voluntary. We tried that up until the 20th century, and it did not work. So if the Endangered Species Act is flawed then it seems to me that we ought to change it or come up with something better to replace it with rather than just throwing it alway and trusting that it will work out on its own.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    So we should sit around here, and not exploit natural resources for our own gain? Thats our nature, thats what we do. Thats how we got ahead in the first place, and thats the only way we will continue to advance. Now I am about conserving what we can while were here, cause we need this place to be around long enough for us to figure out the problems inherent in space travel/colonization.
    Ok, I think we are at impasse then. Because if you think this is just a rock to use until we can get off of it and find something better, then we are not going to agree at all.

    I see this as the only home we are ever going to have, so we have to take care of it.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  3. #23
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I agree with you on the potential for abuse. However, environmental preservation represents a Market Failure. In most cases there is little incentive to preserve the environment or biodiversity for future generations at the costs of profit. So there has to be some way of doing this outside of just the pure voluntary. We tried that up until the 20th century, and it did not work. So if the Endangered Species Act is flawed then it seems to me that we ought to change it or come up with something better to replace it with rather than just throwing it alway and trusting that it will work out on its own.
    As much as I dislike it, I could be open to this.

    I want to protect the environment from dangerous abuse but I also want property owners to have full rights, it is a hard thing to compromise.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #24
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    A perfect example of the 300 year old antiquated thinking of hard core right -libertarians. Basically, to you guys, its your property and you can do what ever you want with it without regard to future generations or natural life on it.
    Please educate yourself. Playing the fool gets old really quick.

    Endangered Species Act: FLAWED LAW
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Please educate yourself. Playing the fool gets old really quick.

    Endangered Species Act: FLAWED LAW
    There are a lot of politically driven critiques of the Endangered Species Act. However, this is an issue of science, so science should be what evaluates the effectiveness of it.

    The US Center for Biological Diversity has just released an important study assessing the success of the US Endangered Species Act: the primary piece of legislation to protect biological diversity in the US.

    As the report states, the purpose of the Act is "to prevent the extinction of America’s most imperiled plants and animals, increase their numbers, and eventually effect their full recovery and removal from the endangered list. Currently 1,312 species in the United States are entrusted to its protection".

    Their results suggest that the Act has been successful in achieving its objectives:

    No species has become extinct after listing.

    Most species have improved since listing, with 93% of species increasing or maintaining a stable population since listing.

    Seven of the 11 species whose recovery plans aimed for recovery by 2005 had been delisted or at least ‘downlisted’ (ie, downgraded from ‘endangered’ to ‘threatened’).
    Report is here: The Road to Recovery: 100 Success Stories for Endangered Species Day 2006

    So compared to extinction rates for endangered species prior to the act, its been quite effective from a biologist perspective. I would certainly agree that there are conflicts with property rights and I think that some warrant being addressed, but the goal of the act is a good one, and we should not throw it out altogether.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    As much as I dislike it, I could be open to this.

    I want to protect the environment from dangerous abuse but I also want property owners to have full rights, it is a hard thing to compromise.
    There is really two different problems here:

    1. How should we manage the commons (public lands) for preservation and maintaining biodiversity.

    2. How do we preserve critical habit on private lands while still maintaining property rights.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    As much as I dislike it, I could be open to this.

    I want to protect the environment from dangerous abuse but I also want property owners to have full rights, it is a hard thing to compromise.
    Not really. Vote with your dollar and encourage others to do the same.

  8. #28
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    There are a lot of politically driven critiques of the Endangered Species Act. However, this is an issue of science, so science should be what evaluates the effectiveness of it.

    Report is here: The Road to Recovery: 100 Success Stories for Endangered Species Day 2006

    So compared to extinction rates for endangered species prior to the act, its been quite effective from a biologist perspective. I would certainly agree that there are conflicts with property rights and I think that some warrant being addressed, but the goal of the act is a good one, and we should not throw it out altogether.
    I agree. I apologize for coming off like a dick, I'm not feeling too well today.

    I do not think we should throw it out, I just believe we need major revision. Some of the animals on the list are far from endangered, while other near endangered species have missed the safe haven boat.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I agree. I apologize for coming off like a dick, I'm not feeling too well today.

    I do not think we should throw it out, I just believe we need major revision. Some of the animals on the list are far from endangered, while other near endangered species have missed the safe haven boat.
    I agree with that. I just think that environmental protection is probably one of the few legitimate roles of government. Sometimes I think people get so anti-government that they actually think that National Parks were a bad idea. You know what I mean.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #30
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered SpeciesSame topic. Threads merged.
    Oh I'm sorry did I post mine after the other one?

    I apologize.


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