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Thread: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Species go extinct all the time, what does it matter if its us or some other cause that wipes them out?
    Yes, species have always out competed each other and some survive and some go extinct. Its just what happens in the natural world. However, we human's have introduced a "market distortion" into the natural world. As a direct result of human activity, species extinction over the last century has accelerated to 1000 times the natural rate. At the rate we are going, half the biodiversity on earth will be gone by the end of this century.

    This represents a theft from future generations.

    Another example of this is how we are rapidly changing the land. In the name of "Clean Coal", we are taking entire mountains in the Appalachians and turning them from this:



    Into this:



    In the end it is nothing less than theft from future generations, in this case, we are stealing entire mountains from thousands of future generations all in our attempts to maintain our lifestyle in this generation.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 03-04-09 at 03:37 PM.
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Yes, species have always out competed each other and some survive and some go extinct. Its just what happens in the natural world. However, we human's have introduced a "market distortion" into the natural world. As a direct result of human activity, species extinction over the last century has accelerated to 1000 times the natural rate. At the rate we are going, half the biodiversity on earth will be gone by the end of this century.

    This represents a theft from future generations.

    Another example of this is how we are rapidly changing the land. In the name of "Clean Coal", we are taking entire mountains in the Appalachians and turning them from this:



    Into this:



    In the end it is nothing less than theft from future generations, in this case, we are stealing entire mountains from thousands of future generations all in our attempts to maintain our lifestyle in this generation.
    First of all, we are a part of the natural process. To say we introduce the unnatural, is erroneous. Unless you believe us created by a supernatural being, our evolution to this point is how the earth itself has shaped us. What we are doing is within our natural rights.
    We are supposed to be trying to send future generations out into space, to spread our species amongst the stars. That should be the gift we give them above all others.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    This represents a theft from future generations.

    {snip}

    In the end it is nothing less than theft from future generations, in this case, we are stealing entire mountains from thousands of future generations all in our attempts to maintain our lifestyle in this generation.
    That all sounds nice. Everybody likes mountains with trees and animals rather than mountains with bare rocks.

    Unfortunately, we need to keep the power on. You know, so that moms and dads and kids will have lights, heat, AC, microwaves... and TV. And it's also nice to keep that power affordable. So that all the poor Americans who are having trouble making mortgage and car payments right now can pay their bills.

    When 'green' energy is readily available and cost-effective, there's no doubt we'll all support it. Everyone. We'll all welcome it. Unfortunately it's not available. (Now's when the Big Oil conspiracy theorists will jump in.)

    When 'green' energy is a reality we won't have to cut down forests or drill messy oil and gas wells and cause species to go extinct. Until then, we really don't have much choice. It's a delicate balancing act. No one likes it. It's not fun. But the alternative simply isn't viable. Because we're not about to let the lights go off on all those moms and dads and their kids.


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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I understand your concerns. However, this is an ethical issue as well. Does this generation have the moral authority to rob future generations of biodiversity simply in an attempt to maintain our way of life in this generation?
    Yes.

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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    That all sounds nice. Everybody likes mountains with trees and animals rather than mountains with bare rocks.

    Unfortunately, we need to keep the power on. You know, so that moms and dads and kids will have lights, heat, AC, microwaves... and TV. And it's also nice to keep that power affordable. So that all the poor Americans who are having trouble making mortgage and car payments right now can pay their bills.
    No one is arguing that we do not need to keep the power on. However, I think the vast majority of Americans would think its perfectly reasonable to require an environmental assessment before we blow the top half a mountain off to get some coal.

    Thats what this is about. What oil and coal industries want is to be able to buy a lease, and then go and either explore for oil, or blow the top out of a mountain to get to the coal underneath, without having to go through an environmental assessment or public comment period first.

    Its a false dichotomy to argue that we have to chose between environmental assessments and your being able to run your microwave, cool your house, and so on. We have required these assessments for over 30 years now, yet we still have coal, oil, and so on.
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    First of all, we are a part of the natural process. To say we introduce the unnatural, is erroneous. Unless you believe us created by a supernatural being, our evolution to this point is how the earth itself has shaped us. What we are doing is within our natural rights.
    We are supposed to be trying to send future generations out into space, to spread our species amongst the stars. That should be the gift we give them above all others.
    We are at the top of the natural world. No other species in history has had the ability to shape the natural world like we can. That carries an ethical responsibility that say a slug would not have.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    The Endangered Species Act is a ****ing joke in the first place.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    The Endangered Species Act is a ****ing joke in the first place.
    A perfect example of the 300 year old antiquated thinking of hard core right -libertarians. Basically, to you guys, its your property and you can do what ever you want with it without regard to future generations or natural life on it.
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    Re: Obama Suspends Bush Rule on Endangered Species

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    A perfect example of the 300 year old antiquated thinking of hard core right -libertarians. Basically, to you guys, its your property and you can do what ever you want with it without regard to future generations or natural life on it.
    What you propose, although I do agree with it on a voluntary personal basis, leads itself to abuse.

    When a property owner decides he/she wants to develop an apartment complex and the locals don't want them to they can use the Endangered Species Act to at least delay or stop someone from doing so.

    It gives power to someone else over your property. That is wrong especially when your hard earned resources were spent getting it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Obama overturns Bush endangered species rule

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    We are at the top of the natural world. No other species in history has had the ability to shape the natural world like we can. That carries an ethical responsibility that say a slug would not have.
    So we should sit around here, and not exploit natural resources for our own gain? Thats our nature, thats what we do. Thats how we got ahead in the first place, and thats the only way we will continue to advance. Now I am about conserving what we can while were here, cause we need this place to be around long enough for us to figure out the problems inherent in space travel/colonization. I don't advocate people going out and hunting wolves, just to say they shot a wolf. I hate canned hunts with a passion, because they serve no purpose for our advancement. But nature takes a backseat to getting off this rock and part of that is developing cultures that are advanced and technologically capable of solving those issues. And that takes energy. Massive amounts of it. Now I also support the research into alternative energies, not because I am worried about some polar bears starving to death, but because oil is a finite resource and it will most likely run out before we figure out how to move through interstellar space. We need alternatives for that reason alone, and the sooner the better. But I have no qualms about taking what oil we can in the meantime. Its there, and its the cheapest method currently. Use it. Ethics should always take a backseat to survival.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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