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Thread: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Joby, I believe the real threat from Iran is going to be a suitcase type bomb delivered by a covert operative...not a nuclear tipped missile. That has been a very real concern for some time among defense and intelligence experts.
    I agree, and Iran needs to know that we can identify exactly where the uranium from any nuke came from within hours, and that giving someone who would use the bomb is equivalent to using the bomb themselves. Either way, they'll be glass.

    But that is a reason for increased security of another sort than a missile shield.

    I don't believe for a second that the European missile shield was intended to protect Europe from just Iran. The reemergence of Russia as a strategic military power broker was an influencing factor.

    If Obama trades this away I'll have no choice but to question his judgment. Negotiating with Russia and co-existing with them peacefully is a great goal, but giving them our back on this is simply not good juju.
    Well, apparently the Russians also saw through the charade about how the missile shield was to protect against Iran. But the thing is, the missile shield is set for 10 interceptor missiles in Poland. As Vader pointed out, the only good it can do in regards to Russia is as a bargaining chip. If we can get cooperation from the Russians regarding Iran as well as easier supply lines into Afghanistan then it'll be worth the trade-off (not to mention, Euro's would certainly be happy with better relations between the West and Russia. Especially the thousands who froze during the recent gas dispute).

    While Russia is emerging from the post-Cold War slump they are nowhere near the capabilities they had before the fall, especially in regards to their Navy, nuclear submarines in particular. I was wary of hearing Cheney introduce the idea of a 'new cold war' a few years back (likely in part to justify defense contracts for obsolete, ultra-expensive cold war weapons), and am optimistic that can be avoided.
    Last edited by Joby; 03-03-09 at 04:48 AM.
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I suppose my question would be this. Why would Russian want a nuclear armed Iran? Do we need a bargaining chip at all? And if Russia doesn't care that Iran has nukes then we need to be a hell of lot more worried about Russia than we are.
    Well, Russia has denied that they want a nuclear armed Iran.

    However, Russia is helping to oversee the dry-runs of Iran's newly built nuclear power plant. Russia has taken upon itself the duty, with Iranian consent, to maintain and replace the fuel rods in order to keep them from being used for weaponry.

    Whether they could stop a regime determined to get the bomb is hard to tell, but what can be said is that Russian cooperation is needed if the US wants to achieve that peacefully.
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I will agree that it's risky in that it tips the balance of power in our favor, but I'll disagree that it's in Russia's sphere of influence. It's in the west's sphere of influence now. Is it destabilizing? Yes, but only in that it makes it more difficult for Russia to reassert it's former threat of nuclear annihilation as a bargaining chip.
    What about yours? I'm not an American, if there is going to be such a bargaining chip I'd at least like to see it balanced and not residing in one power alone.


    Russia is still a great power. Eastern Europe is definitely its sphere of influence. The West is not a nation.

    It is destabalising because it is trying to reshift power bases and change balances of power, which is inherently destablising, where it really doesn't need to happen.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It is an extremely good idea. Russia is still a great power and the attempts to muscle in on its backyard by Bush and co were idiotic. If you don't respect other great powers and their respective spheres of influence then you will quickly destablise the world, ideological rhetoric not withstanding.

    The American gov't would not be too happy if Russia or China started messing around in Central America(again).
    Hey, we let him drive those naval rustbuckets to Venezuela didn't we?
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If Russia decides to nuke us (or someone else), which do you think is more likely: They'll fire one nuclear weapon, or they'll fire 400 nuclear weapons?

    Unless the shield can stop a barrage of nukes (and some decoys too), what's the purpose of it?
    If Russia fires only one then we will be back on the streets in million years. If they fire 400 it will take a billion years.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Fraid not, Russia supplies much of Europe with gas. They have us by the "short and curlies" every winter when they threaten to cut off supplies. They also have huge oil reserves and have just claimed a large part of the Arctic.

    Go on holiday around any parts of Europe and you'll see and hear more Russians than Germans / French / Italians etc.

    We're lucky Russia discovered its oil reserves after the Cold war was over. Anyhow - is there a link for the story?
    That isn't enitirely true.

    Russia has the EU by the curlies. Russia's claim on the arctic is still in dispute.

    In 1990, the Soviet Union fell.... Russia is still not yet out of the woods ... so to speak.

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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    If Russia fires only one then we will be back on the streets in million years. If they fire 400 it will take a billion years.
    I think you guys are drastically overestimating how powerful nukes are. If they fire one, they'd destroy a city but life would go on for the rest of us. If they fire 400, they'd destroy 400 cities but life would go on for the rest of us. To destroy civilization would require the United States and Russia to empty their entire nuclear arsenals on one another, and the rest of the world.

    But regardless, this doesn't really address the point I was making. If the purpose of the shield is to defend against Russia rather than Iran, all it would take is for Russia to fire a few more nukes than the shield could handle, which is certainly within their capabilities.
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    I think we should trade our membership in NATO for Russian help in negotiations with the "world"

    ...

  9. #29
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    No, NATO works most of the time, while missile shields fail miserably more often than not.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Obama 'ready to drop shield plans for Russian help on Iran'

    In one word: NAIVE

    Title Correction:
    Obama 'ready to drop pants and hold ankles for Russians and Iranians

    Text correction:
    MOSCOW, March 2 (RIA Novosti) - Washington has told Moscow that Russian help in resolving Iran's nuclear program would make its missile shield plans for Europe unnecessary, a Russian daily said on Monday, citing White House sources...

    Sources in the Kremlin responded initially with shock that the President of The United States could be so naive, then shock changed to uncontrollable laughter, as the Russian leaders were sharing this latest foray into Disney Politics with the Iranians per telephone.

    Under deep cover, one member of the Kremlin staff said we would no sooner help Obama with Iran than we Russians would give up drinking Wodka. Is he stupid, or naive or both asked the grizzled international veteran, and added, "we look forward to working President Obama". When asked if he left out working "with" President Obama, the staffer smiled and left the room.

    Last edited by zimmer; 03-04-09 at 06:26 AM.
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