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Thread: China relics buyer refuses to pay

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    While it may have a "moral" claim to the relics, there is no legal claim to them.
    Your point being...?

    That China doesn't deserve to get back a piece of its cultural heritage?

    Ok.

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Your point being...?

    That China doesn't deserve to get back a piece of its cultural heritage?

    Ok.
    I didn't say that. However, the current owners of those relics paid in many cases a pretty penny for those pieces. You expect them to give those up without compensation?
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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    At some point there probably needs to be a statute of limitations on these things. As Sydney Greenstreet said of the Maltese Falcon: "You might as well say it belongs to the King of Spain. I don't see how you can honestly grant it to anyone else, except by right of possession."

    How far back can nations go to reclaim things that someone stole from them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right (three lefts do... but that is a different story entirely) ... as such ... those responsible need to be banned from further bidding and China needs to be officialy sanctioned for allowing this action.
    I don't think China exactly "allowed" this action. It's just some random guy doing what he thinks is right, and making a political statement. To "officially sanction" China for this would be the equivalent of other nations sanctioning the United States for the actions of Cindy Sheehan or Pat Robertson.
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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    At some point there probably needs to be a statute of limitations on these things. As Sydney Greenstreet said of the Maltese Falcon: "You might as well say it belongs to the King of Spain. I don't see how you can honestly grant it to anyone else, except by right of possession."
    Right. I am also of the understanding that the Chinese government was not involved and that it was the actions of a person acting alone. That person should be sanctioned, but not the government in Beiping.
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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I didn't say that. However, the current owners of those relics paid in many cases a pretty penny for those pieces. You expect them to give those up without compensation?
    I'm not the least bit surprised. Because according to you, China never has the legal right to anything.
    So who cares if it was stolen from China illegally to begin with right? China is afterall a backwards communist country and that's all that matters.
    Someone stole from China before? Great, steal some more.

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    I'm not the least bit surprised. Because according to you, China never has the legal right to anything.
    So who cares if it was stolen from China illegally to begin with right? China is afterall a backwards communist country and that's all that matters.
    Someone stole from China before? Great, steal some more.
    Well...that's not what he said. That's not what he said at all.

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    When the KMT fled to Taiwan, they took a lot of relics with them at the time. Now, in the post-Cultural Revolution world, Taiwan has more of China's "original works" preserved than China itself, but China doesn't make claim to Taiwan's treasures because those relics are guarded by Chinese people.

    France is another story. France, along with Britain, pillaged China, and burned down the Summer Palace as retribution for the Qian Long Emperor refusing to heed to Western powers. Regardless of whether or not the Cultural Revolution happened later, France's actions were the result of its own misdeeds. No one in China gave them permission to take the relics or to hold onto them. If someone went to the Palace of Versailles and stole a painting or gold embroidery and fled to their country, France would demand its return. (And probably get their way.)

    There are tonnes of relic dealers in the world, most of them underground, and if they are caught by their governments, the governments take possession of the relics. But then what happens to them? The governments keep them or auction them off "legally". So why is it not okay for black market dealers to have them, but it's okay for the French government to permit their reselling? It's one big hypocrisy.

    Franco-Chinese relations are not top priority though. The French President voted to veto the Olympics, Chinese economic trade is not that big of a deal, and they are both oil competitors in the Middle East and Africa. There is no reason why France would be obliged to grant this request... but its government should still do it out of goodness.
    Last edited by Orion; 03-04-09 at 12:37 AM.

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    At some point there probably needs to be a statute of limitations on these things. As Sydney Greenstreet said of the Maltese Falcon: "You might as well say it belongs to the King of Spain. I don't see how you can honestly grant it to anyone else, except by right of possession."

    How far back can nations go to reclaim things that someone stole from them?



    I don't think China exactly "allowed" this action. It's just some random guy doing what he thinks is right, and making a political statement. To "officially sanction" China for this would be the equivalent of other nations sanctioning the United States for the actions of Cindy Sheehan or Pat Robertson.
    Yeah ... I suppose so.

    All his accounts need to be closed and he needs to be denied access to all further actions.

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    There is no excuse for why thieves stole property from another nation. This is all that is happening... thieves trying to justify their behaviour. If it were petty theft, people would be saying there is no excuse for why you shoplifted... but a grand cultural larseny is okay. The same sense of entitlement that France and England had when they invaded China and made the Qing sign the Treaty of Nanjing is the same sense of imperialist entitlement that they have to cultural relics stolen during that time. These countries never learn.

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    Re: China relics buyer refuses to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    There is no excuse for why thieves stole property from another nation. This is all that is happening... thieves trying to justify their behaviour. If it were petty theft, people would be saying there is no excuse for why you shoplifted... but a grand cultural larseny is okay. The same sense of entitlement that France and England had when they invaded China and made the Qing sign the Treaty of Nanjing is the same sense of imperialist entitlement that they have to cultural relics stolen during that time. These countries never learn.
    Well, if China were stronger, it could have prevented it. Funny how just a few decades earlier, the Chinese were calling the Europeans barbarians, and then they were getting their butts kicked. They should have abided by previous agreements and not executed a French missionary.

    As for the taking of cultural treasures, back in the 19th century, that was a consequence of losing a war. Again, as I said before, it is a GOOD thing they were taken. They would have been destroyed in the 1960s had they NOT been. If CHina wants them back, they will have to negotiate for them. The behavior of this bogus bidder to disrupt the auction was illegal and unethical.
    Last edited by ludahai; 03-06-09 at 06:41 PM.
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