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Chavez sends army to rice plants

jujuman13

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BBC NEWS | Americas | Chavez sends army to rice plants

It may well be a sad fact of life that Companies HAVE to make a profit in order to survive.
Mr. Chavez evidently thinks otherwise, for that matter so did those who ran the Soviet Union as well as the Chinese.
It is all very well to nationalize essential food, cement, Oil producers, but at some point these companies or production units will have to make profits else they will falter and subsequently fail.
 
Link
BBC NEWS | Americas | Chavez sends army to rice plants

It may well be a sad fact of life that Companies HAVE to make a profit in order to survive.
Mr. Chavez evidently thinks otherwise, for that matter so did those who ran the Soviet Union as well as the Chinese.
It is all very well to nationalize essential food, cement, Oil producers, but at some point these companies or production units will have to make profits else they will falter and subsequently fail.

For all those who say "he was democratically elected so it makes it ok."

It looks like he is pulling a Mugabe.

Do you still feel the same or should we wait longer for him to make things worse?
 
I am waiting for the UN to make an announcement.
 
For all those who say "he was democratically elected so it makes it ok."

It looks like he is pulling a Mugabe.

Do you still feel the same or should we wait longer for him to make things worse?

Mugabe was democratically elected also.
 
For all those who say "he was democratically elected so it makes it ok."

It looks like he is pulling a Mugabe.

Do you still feel the same or should we wait longer for him to make things worse?

Wait for what?

He seems to be nothing like Mugabe.

I think it is probably better if we can the silly rhetoric and don't invade nations because of bull**** ideological reasoning.
 
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For all those who say "he was democratically elected so it makes it ok."

It looks like he is pulling a Mugabe.

Do you still feel the same or should we wait longer for him to make things worse?

I think countries often get the government they deserve. If he was elected fairly, then I'd say it's the Venezuelans problem.
 
As was Hitler.

Yep. Point is having a democracy does not prevent people like Chavez from emerging. Having a strong fair democracy does that, and Venezuela has never remotely had that. Before Chavez it was the right wing lead business (funny enough these rice companies too) dictatorship that oppressed and milked the country. Now we have the opposite, a very natural reaction in a weak democratic (institutionalwise and tradition) system. Not much we can do about it, especially if we support one dictator but not the other...
 
I am waiting for the UN to make an announcement.
Like "You better start behaving or we'll get really really mad"
 
Mugabe was democratically elected also.

What a ray of sunshine he turned out to be right?

Wessexman said:
Wait for what?

He seems to be nothing like Mugabe.

I think it is probably better if we can the silly rhetoric and don't invade nations because of bull**** ideological reasoning.

Sure he is like Mugabe. He's going to starve his people because of super retarded government food programs.

Do I need to wait for hyper inflation to make another comparison.

Holy ****, the way some people legitimize this mans actions.

I never said invade.

TheNextEra said:
And what do you want? To have the U.S. invade Venezuela?

Sigh. I never said invade, but there are some people that legitimize this man because he was elected as if that is some sign of rightness with his actions.

A lot of people have been saying this guy is trouble and that his people need to stop him.

Moon said:
I think countries often get the government they deserve. If he was elected fairly, then I'd say it's the Venezuelans problem.

I agree, but the people who didn't elect him are going to suffer to.

I hope some in his country does something about him.
 
I agree, but the people who didn't elect him are going to suffer to.

I hope some in his country does something about him.

Such is the nature of the democratic beast. Someone has to lose the election.
 
I completely agree but many many people here seem to think that if someone is elected that it makes what they do afterward ok.

I don't like apologists for mini tyrants.

Who said it was okay? I certainly didn't, but I do think the Venezuelans got exactly the government they wanted and deserved. So what options do they have? They've re-elected the guy, so they're obviously happy with him. They've also given the President the option of running as many times as he feels like it, so it's very possible they're going to keep him around for quite a while. So what would you have them or anyone else do about it?
 
Who said it was okay? I certainly didn't, but I do think the Venezuelans got exactly the government they wanted and deserved. So what options do they have? They've re-elected the guy, so they're obviously happy with him. They've also given the President the option of running as many times as he feels like it, so it's very possible they're going to keep him around for quite a while. So what would you have them or anyone else do about it?

I'm not accusing you of anything.

The last time the Chavez discussion went around there were some who said that removing term limits for Venezuela wasn't a bad idea and many other countries don't have term limits
Now generally I don't care but this guy is a nasty little pill.

Some people are happy with him and some people elected him, which leads to another debate about why democratic elections are wrong.

Honestly, I would have them remove him using any means available.

Not the U.S. invading though.
 
I'm not accusing you of anything.

The last time the Chavez discussion went around there were some who said that removing term limits for Venezuela wasn't a bad idea and many other countries don't have term limits
Now generally I don't care but this guy is a nasty little pill.

Some people are happy with him and some people elected him, which leads to another debate about why democratic elections are wrong.

Honestly, I would have them remove him using any means available.

Not the U.S. invading though.

I would prefer that as well, but it seems that they're happy heading down the path to nationalized industries, to eventually end up as prosperous as the USSR and Cuba.
 
I would prefer that as well, but it seems that they're happy heading down the path to nationalized industries, to eventually end up as prosperous as the USSR and Cuba.

It's just really frustrating though that people just accept it as good, as if government can save people from themselves.

I'm still angry about the world not learning from the fallacies of the fascist and socialist states of the WW2 era.

It's hard to get over.

A freedom revolution would be nice.
 
It's just really frustrating though that people just accept it as good, as if government can save people from themselves.

I'm still angry about the world not learning from the fallacies of the fascist and socialist states of the WW2 era.

It's hard to get over.

A freedom revolution would be nice.

Who said anything as accepting Chaves as "good"? The people of Venezuela elected him in a democratic election as a reaction to right wing lead governments that had exploited the Venezuelan people for decades. The Palestinian people elected Hamas because of the corruption of the PLO and similar. The US people elected Obama and the Democrats as a reaction to Bush and the failures of the Republican policies. The Germans elected Hitler because of the weakness of the right wing governments in post WW1 Germany. This happens in a democratic state.

Now the problem comes in democratic states that have weak governmental institutions and democratic traditions. Venezuela is one of them. Zimbabwe is another, Iraq is a third. There are many such examples. When this happens, when there is a reaction to some sort of "wrong doing" in the eyes of the electorate, then we end up in the Chaves situation.

You and I dont like him, but the people who elected him like him far better than the right wing alternatives. The last 30+ years of right wing "democracy" and dictatorships in Venezuela gave nothing to the majority of the populace. The elite and rich became richer.. that was it.

That he cant live up to those expectations thanks to his own policies and the subversive movements internally and externally, means that he will keep grabbing for more power and in the end yes we will end with a dictatorship. But this is something we have to accept is happening. It is up to the people of Venezuela to understand this, and considering the points of reference for the people, then frankly that will take a long time.

And it does not help one bit, that the US still supports the same people that held power for 30+ years. It is only ammo for Chavez to rally his "people" against the same "people" that oppressed them for so long. That will keep Chavez in power longer, and that is also a fact. Look at Mugabe, look at Saddam, look at the Mullahs in Tehran, look at Hitler, look at random king/queen through history...it is classic politics.. blame someone so people rally around you to fight this "enemy" regardless if it is a real threat or not. Kings and Queens used this excuse on the Jews for centuries for example.

But yea a freedom revolution would be nice, but that would require massive education and information to achieve in any country and the very forces you hate (and I hate) will do anything to combat such things.. and this is regardless if it is right wing or left wing.
 
Who said anything as accepting Chaves as "good"? The people of Venezuela elected him in a democratic election as a reaction to right wing lead governments that had exploited the Venezuelan people for decades. The Palestinian people elected Hamas because of the corruption of the PLO and similar. The US people elected Obama and the Democrats as a reaction to Bush and the failures of the Republican policies. The Germans elected Hitler because of the weakness of the right wing governments in post WW1 Germany. This happens in a democratic state.

I agree with this. I'm getting burned out on feeling sorry for stupid people.
If we have another situation where someone has to rescue them, we shouldn't do it.

Now the problem comes in democratic states that have weak governmental institutions and democratic traditions. Venezuela is one of them. Zimbabwe is another, Iraq is a third. There are many such examples. When this happens, when there is a reaction to some sort of "wrong doing" in the eyes of the electorate, then we end up in the Chaves situation.

To many public figures have supported this man and it legitimizes his reign.
It exacerbates his wrong doing.

You and I dont like him, but the people who elected him like him far better than the right wing alternatives. The last 30+ years of right wing "democracy" and dictatorships in Venezuela gave nothing to the majority of the populace. The elite and rich became richer.. that was it.

The opposite is not good either though. Well at least the perceived opposite.

That he cant live up to those expectations thanks to his own policies and the subversive movements internally and externally, means that he will keep grabbing for more power and in the end yes we will end with a dictatorship. But this is something we have to accept is happening. It is up to the people of Venezuela to understand this, and considering the points of reference for the people, then frankly that will take a long time.

I think instead of invasion, which I don't support, there should be some sort of information proliferation.

Something to prove he is going to ruin his country.

And it does not help one bit, that the US still supports the same people that held power for 30+ years. It is only ammo for Chavez to rally his "people" against the same "people" that oppressed them for so long. That will keep Chavez in power longer, and that is also a fact. Look at Mugabe, look at Saddam, look at the Mullahs in Tehran, look at Hitler, look at random king/queen through history...it is classic politics.. blame someone so people rally around you to fight this "enemy" regardless if it is a real threat or not. Kings and Queens used this excuse on the Jews for centuries for example.

It happens everywhere in America and Europe. I hate it with a passion.
Thats why I'm firmly against democratic elections.

But yea a freedom revolution would be nice, but that would require massive education and information to achieve in any country and the very forces you hate (and I hate) will do anything to combat such things.. and this is regardless if it is right wing or left wing.

And that is the largest problem I have with my politic belief system. For others to understand it you have to think beyond propaganda.

You have to think rationally, objectively and always question yourself for better solutions.

I'm sorry if I accused you of supporting this guy.

You are pretty reasonable.
 
I agree with this. I'm getting burned out on feeling sorry for stupid people.

Now you know how I and the rest of the world felt when Bush was re-elected.

If we have another situation where someone has to rescue them, we shouldn't do it.

Well, considering we have not invaded a South American country every, then I doubt it will happen.

To many public figures have supported this man and it legitimizes his reign.
It exacerbates his wrong doing.

Bush..

The opposite is not good either though. Well at least the perceived opposite.

It was not perceived. It was very real. A very large majority of the populace never got any benefits out of the oil revenues and that is especially those where the oil fields are. Much like the Nigerian situation btw. Now I aint saying Chavez will change that, but the people believe that he will and he might even do some things to improve their situation (I think he has tbh). But that dont change the fact that he aint exactly kosher.

I think instead of invasion, which I don't support, there should be some sort of information proliferation.

Something to prove he is going to ruin his country.

That is a bit hard to do. You not only need access to the country to spread the information, you also need the people to believe that what you are saying is correct. And that last part is extremly hard when you use to back the very people (and still do) the very people that the populace has an issue with.

It happens everywhere in America and Europe. I hate it with a passion.
Thats why I'm firmly against democratic elections.

Well here we disagree fully. There is no alternative to a democracy. Any system where one person or small group of people are unopposed unelected in running a country will only become corrupt.

All we can do to prevent a Chavez, Hitler situation is make sure that the instruments of democracy are free of as much bias and influence from political parties/politicians as possible. This means making laws that are transparent and fair when it comes to running elections. This means making sure that the election system is free from bias and conflicts of interest. Such things. But most importantly it means keeping the media free from as much biased reporting as possible. That is why things like Fox News, Russia Today and other similar highly biased outlets are damn dangerous when it comes to the democratic system. Like it or not, the media have a very important role in any society, and it is here a dictator or group can influence the most people. That is why it is damn important to have as many media outlets as free from political influence and bias as possible. That is why laws that protect the integrity of the media from outside influence is important.

And that is the largest problem I have with my politic belief system. For others to understand it you have to think beyond propaganda.

You have to think rationally, objectively and always question yourself for better solutions.

I'm sorry if I accused you of supporting this guy.

You are pretty reasonable.

No problem. Chavez is scum, but he is a typical reaction to other scum.
 
Sure he is like Mugabe. He's going to starve his people because of super retarded government food programs.

Do I need to wait for hyper inflation to make another comparison.
Yes. You need some kind of proof before you start making such claims and anyway it isn't our problem. If the people don't want to overthrow him then it is there problem unless he is committing genocide or something.
Holy ****, the way some people legitimize this mans actions.

I never said invade.
We should do very little to interfere it isn't our problem. My justification for saying this comes from much the same place your dislike of gov't food programs does. Interventionist foreign policy has similar effects.

Sigh. I never said invade, but there are some people that legitimize this man because he was elected as if that is some sign of rightness with his actions.

A lot of people have been saying this guy is trouble and that his people need to stop him.

To be fair a lot of those are ideologically opposed to him.
 
Yes. You need some kind of proof before you start making such claims and anyway it isn't our problem. If the people don't want to overthrow him then it is there problem unless he is committing genocide or something.

I'm not a court of law and even though this is a debate site I'll take the hit of not having proof.

It is a problem for everyone. While I want personal responsibility, I will not sit by and not criticize abject stupidity.

Letting things like this go by uncriticized can lead to others adopting this crap platform.

Governments have been overthrown for things less than genocide and rightfully so.

We should do very little to interfere it isn't our problem. My justification for saying this comes from much the same place your dislike of gov't food programs does. Interventionist foreign policy has similar effects.

I don't want to intervene militarily. I want to inform the uninformed about what this is going to lead to.

To be fair a lot of those are ideologically opposed to him.

His people should stop him.
 
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