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Thread: Chavez sends army to rice plants

  1. #21
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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's just really frustrating though that people just accept it as good, as if government can save people from themselves.

    I'm still angry about the world not learning from the fallacies of the fascist and socialist states of the WW2 era.

    It's hard to get over.

    A freedom revolution would be nice.
    Who said anything as accepting Chaves as "good"? The people of Venezuela elected him in a democratic election as a reaction to right wing lead governments that had exploited the Venezuelan people for decades. The Palestinian people elected Hamas because of the corruption of the PLO and similar. The US people elected Obama and the Democrats as a reaction to Bush and the failures of the Republican policies. The Germans elected Hitler because of the weakness of the right wing governments in post WW1 Germany. This happens in a democratic state.

    Now the problem comes in democratic states that have weak governmental institutions and democratic traditions. Venezuela is one of them. Zimbabwe is another, Iraq is a third. There are many such examples. When this happens, when there is a reaction to some sort of "wrong doing" in the eyes of the electorate, then we end up in the Chaves situation.

    You and I dont like him, but the people who elected him like him far better than the right wing alternatives. The last 30+ years of right wing "democracy" and dictatorships in Venezuela gave nothing to the majority of the populace. The elite and rich became richer.. that was it.

    That he cant live up to those expectations thanks to his own policies and the subversive movements internally and externally, means that he will keep grabbing for more power and in the end yes we will end with a dictatorship. But this is something we have to accept is happening. It is up to the people of Venezuela to understand this, and considering the points of reference for the people, then frankly that will take a long time.

    And it does not help one bit, that the US still supports the same people that held power for 30+ years. It is only ammo for Chavez to rally his "people" against the same "people" that oppressed them for so long. That will keep Chavez in power longer, and that is also a fact. Look at Mugabe, look at Saddam, look at the Mullahs in Tehran, look at Hitler, look at random king/queen through history...it is classic politics.. blame someone so people rally around you to fight this "enemy" regardless if it is a real threat or not. Kings and Queens used this excuse on the Jews for centuries for example.

    But yea a freedom revolution would be nice, but that would require massive education and information to achieve in any country and the very forces you hate (and I hate) will do anything to combat such things.. and this is regardless if it is right wing or left wing.
    PeteEU

  2. #22
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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Who said anything as accepting Chaves as "good"? The people of Venezuela elected him in a democratic election as a reaction to right wing lead governments that had exploited the Venezuelan people for decades. The Palestinian people elected Hamas because of the corruption of the PLO and similar. The US people elected Obama and the Democrats as a reaction to Bush and the failures of the Republican policies. The Germans elected Hitler because of the weakness of the right wing governments in post WW1 Germany. This happens in a democratic state.
    I agree with this. I'm getting burned out on feeling sorry for stupid people.
    If we have another situation where someone has to rescue them, we shouldn't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Now the problem comes in democratic states that have weak governmental institutions and democratic traditions. Venezuela is one of them. Zimbabwe is another, Iraq is a third. There are many such examples. When this happens, when there is a reaction to some sort of "wrong doing" in the eyes of the electorate, then we end up in the Chaves situation.
    To many public figures have supported this man and it legitimizes his reign.
    It exacerbates his wrong doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    You and I dont like him, but the people who elected him like him far better than the right wing alternatives. The last 30+ years of right wing "democracy" and dictatorships in Venezuela gave nothing to the majority of the populace. The elite and rich became richer.. that was it.
    The opposite is not good either though. Well at least the perceived opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    That he cant live up to those expectations thanks to his own policies and the subversive movements internally and externally, means that he will keep grabbing for more power and in the end yes we will end with a dictatorship. But this is something we have to accept is happening. It is up to the people of Venezuela to understand this, and considering the points of reference for the people, then frankly that will take a long time.
    I think instead of invasion, which I don't support, there should be some sort of information proliferation.

    Something to prove he is going to ruin his country.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And it does not help one bit, that the US still supports the same people that held power for 30+ years. It is only ammo for Chavez to rally his "people" against the same "people" that oppressed them for so long. That will keep Chavez in power longer, and that is also a fact. Look at Mugabe, look at Saddam, look at the Mullahs in Tehran, look at Hitler, look at random king/queen through history...it is classic politics.. blame someone so people rally around you to fight this "enemy" regardless if it is a real threat or not. Kings and Queens used this excuse on the Jews for centuries for example.
    It happens everywhere in America and Europe. I hate it with a passion.
    Thats why I'm firmly against democratic elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    But yea a freedom revolution would be nice, but that would require massive education and information to achieve in any country and the very forces you hate (and I hate) will do anything to combat such things.. and this is regardless if it is right wing or left wing.
    And that is the largest problem I have with my politic belief system. For others to understand it you have to think beyond propaganda.

    You have to think rationally, objectively and always question yourself for better solutions.

    I'm sorry if I accused you of supporting this guy.

    You are pretty reasonable.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #23
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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I agree with this. I'm getting burned out on feeling sorry for stupid people.
    Now you know how I and the rest of the world felt when Bush was re-elected.

    If we have another situation where someone has to rescue them, we shouldn't do it.
    Well, considering we have not invaded a South American country every, then I doubt it will happen.

    To many public figures have supported this man and it legitimizes his reign.
    It exacerbates his wrong doing.
    Bush..

    The opposite is not good either though. Well at least the perceived opposite.
    It was not perceived. It was very real. A very large majority of the populace never got any benefits out of the oil revenues and that is especially those where the oil fields are. Much like the Nigerian situation btw. Now I aint saying Chavez will change that, but the people believe that he will and he might even do some things to improve their situation (I think he has tbh). But that dont change the fact that he aint exactly kosher.

    I think instead of invasion, which I don't support, there should be some sort of information proliferation.

    Something to prove he is going to ruin his country.
    That is a bit hard to do. You not only need access to the country to spread the information, you also need the people to believe that what you are saying is correct. And that last part is extremly hard when you use to back the very people (and still do) the very people that the populace has an issue with.

    It happens everywhere in America and Europe. I hate it with a passion.
    Thats why I'm firmly against democratic elections.
    Well here we disagree fully. There is no alternative to a democracy. Any system where one person or small group of people are unopposed unelected in running a country will only become corrupt.

    All we can do to prevent a Chavez, Hitler situation is make sure that the instruments of democracy are free of as much bias and influence from political parties/politicians as possible. This means making laws that are transparent and fair when it comes to running elections. This means making sure that the election system is free from bias and conflicts of interest. Such things. But most importantly it means keeping the media free from as much biased reporting as possible. That is why things like Fox News, Russia Today and other similar highly biased outlets are damn dangerous when it comes to the democratic system. Like it or not, the media have a very important role in any society, and it is here a dictator or group can influence the most people. That is why it is damn important to have as many media outlets as free from political influence and bias as possible. That is why laws that protect the integrity of the media from outside influence is important.

    And that is the largest problem I have with my politic belief system. For others to understand it you have to think beyond propaganda.

    You have to think rationally, objectively and always question yourself for better solutions.

    I'm sorry if I accused you of supporting this guy.

    You are pretty reasonable.
    No problem. Chavez is scum, but he is a typical reaction to other scum.
    PeteEU

  4. #24
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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    Sure he is like Mugabe. He's going to starve his people because of super retarded government food programs.

    Do I need to wait for hyper inflation to make another comparison.
    Yes. You need some kind of proof before you start making such claims and anyway it isn't our problem. If the people don't want to overthrow him then it is there problem unless he is committing genocide or something.
    Holy ****, the way some people legitimize this mans actions.

    I never said invade.
    We should do very little to interfere it isn't our problem. My justification for saying this comes from much the same place your dislike of gov't food programs does. Interventionist foreign policy has similar effects.

    Sigh. I never said invade, but there are some people that legitimize this man because he was elected as if that is some sign of rightness with his actions.

    A lot of people have been saying this guy is trouble and that his people need to stop him.
    To be fair a lot of those are ideologically opposed to him.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #25
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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yes. You need some kind of proof before you start making such claims and anyway it isn't our problem. If the people don't want to overthrow him then it is there problem unless he is committing genocide or something.
    I'm not a court of law and even though this is a debate site I'll take the hit of not having proof.

    It is a problem for everyone. While I want personal responsibility, I will not sit by and not criticize abject stupidity.

    Letting things like this go by uncriticized can lead to others adopting this crap platform.

    Governments have been overthrown for things less than genocide and rightfully so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    We should do very little to interfere it isn't our problem. My justification for saying this comes from much the same place your dislike of gov't food programs does. Interventionist foreign policy has similar effects.
    I don't want to intervene militarily. I want to inform the uninformed about what this is going to lead to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    To be fair a lot of those are ideologically opposed to him.
    His people should stop him.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Despicable Socialist thinking.

    Another case of collectivisation? Probably will turn out into one, if he continues to seize produce.

  7. #27
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    Re: Chavez sends army to rice plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not a court of law and even though this is a debate site I'll take the hit of not having proof.

    It is a problem for everyone. While I want personal responsibility, I will not sit by and not criticize abject stupidity.

    Letting things like this go by uncriticized can lead to others adopting this crap platform.

    Governments have been overthrown for things less than genocide and rightfully so.
    Generally not rightfully so by foreign powers is what matters.

    I don't want to intervene militarily. I want to inform the uninformed about what this is going to lead to.
    Well intervening military is obviously the last thing we should do but other kinds of interventionism need to be abandoned as well in general.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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