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Thread: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

  1. #21
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    Quote Originally Posted by niftydrifty View Post
    why should I let it go that you've just twisted what he actually said, in order to (again) make a false analogy?

    Biden didn't say, "we've lost XXX jobs." he said "In Louisiana, there's 400 people a day losing their jobs. What's he doing? What's the answer?" you're ignoring the complex reality of employment in Lousiana right now.
    Because that's a stupid ****ing thing to say if that's what he meant, and I assume that Biden isn't that dumb. Repeat: When politicians talk about "losing jobs," everyone and their mother takes that to mean that they're talking about total employment numbers. If they weren't, then you could say equally stupid things, such as "Tens of millions of people lost their jobs under Clinton" and be accurate. I pretty much guarantee that if Bush had tried to make that argument in 2000, you would have been the first to label him as a disingenuous asshole.

    Look at it this way: which sounds worse, Biden made an innocuous gaffe while trying to make a point, or he's being entirely disingenuous and twisting words to make things seem worse than they are?

    I'd rather be "ridiculous," than continue to oversimplify, misrepresent, candy-coat, and assume that most people would think the way I do
    .

    I'm sorry that I assume that when a politician says "XXX people are losing their jobs," people assume that the politician is trying to say that employment is decreasing by XXX. I mean, that's idiotic of me to assume, right? Politicians don't really mean that.

    The White House - Blog Post - Advice from "beyond the echo chamber"

    THE PRESIDENT: I have just had the opportunity to welcome the members of my Economic Recovery Advisory Board. And I'm grateful that I will have the counsel of these extraordinarily talented and experienced men and women in the challenging months to come.

    If there's anyone, anywhere, who doubts the need for wise counsel and bold and immediate action, just consider the very troubling news we received just this morning. Last month, another 600,000 Americans lost their jobs. That is the single worst month of job loss in 35 years.
    Now, do you think Obama is trying to say that 600,000 particular individuals lost their jobs, or that total employment dropped by 600,000?
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    so the issue here for you, RINYC, is how people might take things to mean something, what everyone and their mother takes something to mean, what I would've been the first to do to Bush, what you assume, what people assume, or what Obama said on some other day, ...and not what Biden actually said?

    I guess this explains everything. I'd prefer to discuss what Biden actually said.
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    No, what he cares about is that generally, terms have meanings.

    When I say "This **** is hot" when looking at a car, its generally recognized I'm not saying its physically going to burn me.

    When I say "I made $80 yesterday at work" people don't assume that I'm talking about how much I made at work for that day minus whatever I paid in gas, food, etc.

    When I say "At the end of the week, my bank accounted ended at $800 dollars" that's generally understood to mean that after money put in and money put out, that's the end point.

    When I say "My stocks lost 80 points last week" that generally means my net loss over that past week was 80.

    And, similar to the last one, when someone says a state loses 400 jobs per day that's assumed by most people due to the common way its phrased to be in regards to the net loss.

    Biden, unless he's a complete ****ing idiot, knows this. So one of two things happened:

    1. He made a gaffe, going off bad information he was given.

    2. He purposefully mislead and played politics, by pointing out a negative thing in a common vernacular despite the fact that he knew that if you applied the COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD definition of what he's talking about to his statement it'd be wrong.

    So which was it?

    Was it a gaffe, or was he a typical slimey politician purposefully manipulating the public and information to put down a political opponent for no reason other than petty partisanship?

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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    lol.

    Let's see.

    Unemployment has increased from 5.3 to 5.9. Therefore the total net jobs is negative. Therefore Biden is correct in his assertion that jobs are in fact being lost in Louisiana.

    The article itself doesn't make any sense. How can seasonally adjusted employment rise yet unemployment increase? How can total jobs reported increase yet total unemployment increase? Just because the population increases doesn't mean that the total people in the workforce has increased. Remember that workforce only includes those actively working and those actively seeking employment. The only way this article makes any sense is if Louisiana just experienced a large increase to its total workforce for this one reporting period. Or someone screwed up some math in the process.
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    Quote Originally Posted by niftydrifty View Post
    so the issue here for you, RINYC, is how people might take things to mean something, what everyone and their mother takes something to mean, what I would've been the first to do to Bush, what you assume, what people assume, or what Obama said on some other day, ...and not what Biden actually said?

    I guess this explains everything. I'd prefer to discuss what Biden actually said.
    If I said that you were as useful as tits on a bull, you'd probably be offended since most people have no use for tits on a bull. If on an off chance, I happen to be a fan of bestiality who would love some luscious mammaries on a bull, that doesn't change the fact that telling someone that they're as useful as tits on a bull is an insult.

    If you're actually trying to claim that Biden knew that the area added jobs but was simply referring to the fact that 400 people had been fired, then that's fine. It makes him look like a sleazy ****. Is that better?
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    lol.

    Let's see.

    Unemployment has increased from 5.3 to 5.9. Therefore the total net jobs is negative. Therefore Biden is correct in his assertion that jobs are in fact being lost in Louisiana.

    The article itself doesn't make any sense. How can seasonally adjusted employment rise yet unemployment increase? How can total jobs reported increase yet total unemployment increase? Just because the population increases doesn't mean that the total people in the workforce has increased. Remember that workforce only includes those actively working and those actively seeking employment. The only way this article makes any sense is if Louisiana just experienced a large increase to its total workforce for this one reporting period. Or someone screwed up some math in the process.
    Or, if anyone had actually bothered to read the article, they would have seen that the state added jobs in December, while unemployment "rose" over an indeterminate period.

    Further, the number of people filing claims for unemployment is not directly tied to the number of people working.

    Bureau of Labor Statistics Data

    Between July and September, LA added 17,000 jobs, but unemployment claims increased by 20,000. That means that even though jobs were being created at a very good clip, the unemployment rate had a significant increase.
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Or, if anyone had actually bothered to read the article, they would have seen that the state added jobs in December, while unemployment "rose" over an indeterminate period.
    It says "indeterminate?" Where? Generally reporting of net jobs gained/loss and unemployment changes are done in the same time period.

    At this point, I don't care what Biden said. It's more about accuracy of reporting of statistics.

    Further, the number of people filing claims for unemployment is not directly tied to the number of people working.
    Indeed. While there is a loose association, it's not a good barometer of the whole thing.

    Between July and September, LA added 17,000 jobs, but unemployment claims increased by 20,000. That means that even though jobs were being created at a very good clip, the unemployment rate had a significant increase.
    As I understand it, the unemployment rate is done by poll survey, not by calculating unemployment claims. Just because unemployment claims go up doesn't mean that unemployment is actually rising as people could have started filing after they were laid off last reporting quarter. That's moving reportable unemployment from one quarter to the next distorting the whole picture.
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    It says "indeterminate?" Where? Generally reporting of net jobs gained/loss and unemployment changes are done in the same time period.

    At this point, I don't care what Biden said. It's more about accuracy of reporting of statistics.
    The point was that the article didn't say what the time period was over which unemployment increased from 5.2 to 5.9. As it turns out, that was a Sep. to Dec. period, which is a different time period from the Dec gains in employment that the article was initially referring to.

    As I understand it, the unemployment rate is done by poll survey, not by calculating unemployment claims. Just because unemployment claims go up doesn't mean that unemployment is actually rising as people could have started filing after they were laid off last reporting quarter. That's moving reportable unemployment from one quarter to the next distorting the whole picture.
    I don't know for certain how they calculate it, but if you divide the exact number of people on unemployment by the exact number of people in the labor force on that table in my link, you come up with the exact unemployment rate. It seems like that's how they come up with it.
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The point was that the article didn't say what the time period was over which unemployment increased from 5.2 to 5.9. As it turns out, that was a Sep. to Dec. period, which is a different time period from the Dec gains in employment that the article was initially referring to.
    Good god. I'm close to just giving up on accurate reporting of statistics in this country. Why the hell are they reporting different time periods employment rates with net job gains/losses as the same period?

    Christ sake.

    I don't know for certain how they calculate it, but if you divide the exact number of people on unemployment by the exact number of people in the labor force on that table in my link, you come up with the exact unemployment rate. It seems like that's how they come up with it.
    But that table is merely the outcome of the polling. They estimate the number of workers then they random sample and produce the rate.
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    Re: Reality check for Vice President Joe Biden

    What would Louisiana's unemployment rate be if it were not for all those federally funded reconstruction jobs down there?

    I mean come on, I don't think I would be holding up Louisiana as some pillar of free market conservatism. If it were not for all that money flowing in from the Federal Taxpayers, that state would be a like a third world country.

    Per Capita GDP in LA is 28,500 a year (PPP). When you figure in the billions in federal reconstruction money that has flowed into that state since 2005, that state is really underperforming economically. Its pretty much living off of taxpayers in other states.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 02-26-09 at 10:16 PM.
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