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Thread: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yep but this isn't even the global politics system. This is the internal affairs of nations. I'd rather you didn't interfere with my nation's sovereignty. I have little wish to interfere in yours.
    That's where you are wrong. They are interdependent on so many levels. The old saying, if you cant practice what you preach...
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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Sure you can condemn them, but they can only reply, mind your own business as we have no international agreements on such things.. wups that is what the treaties are for you so hate. Without treaties we have no rules or guidelines to run the global political system. Guess you would rather have more anarchy?



    Hardly useless. Not only can people internally in China use the treaty to bang their own government over the head, but the international community can (like they are doing) bang the Chinese government over the head with the treaty. Can the Chinese just ignore it? Sure, but so what? In the global system of image and international politics we in the west have a moral superiority on this issue when it comes to China and we can use the treaty, that they signed, to remind them that they have treaty obligations. And they know it... they might not care, but they do know it, and the opposition in the country knows it too, which gives the opposition "a leg up" in many ways.

    It is all about image and diplomacy. Now you might not agree with such things and only believe in the policies of the gun, but that is not how the world works.



    So basicly you are an isolationist? You could care less what other countries do with their people, but you reserve the right to criticize them based on your own moral values? What makes your moral value "better" than theirs considering there are far more of them? Without a treaty which said countries have agreed on in principle, you cant claim the diplomatic high ground let alone the moral high ground in being critical of them for not living up to their treaty obligations. So what if the Chinese exploit children, the US does not agree with the international community that this is a crime... they have not signed the treaty after all. China and the international community cares very little about US law btw... very very little, so using that as an excuse to be critical of other nations is very hollow. That is why we have treaties and organisations to solve international disputes before they erupt in to a gun fight.

    International diplomacy is guided and run by treaties, that is a fact. Most of these treaties have been made in conjunction with the UN on a global scale. Most of these treaties are broken in some way at some time by many countries with the exception of the western nations (minus the US). This dilutes even more the meaning of treaties yes, but it does not help that the US is on some sort of isolationist binge like the 1930s. Yes most treaties have no teeth, but that was not the intent of the treaties in the first place. Most treaties are a document of intent as I have stated. If the treaty has teeth in, then it is a strong treaty, but they are rare. NATO is one such treaty.. it has teeth.. one member attacked will be defended by the others. UDHR has no teeth.. there is no global police force to pounce on nations that break the UDHR. But is the UDHR useless then?



    Yes it is smoke and mirrors lol.. that is international diplomacy for god sake! International diplomacy is nothing but smoke and mirrors and image. Not having or agreeing with basic treaties like this, is basicly saying to the world.. bugger off and leave us alone..If that is what you want, fine by me, but then dont come crying about Darfur, Child abuse, terror and what not, because you have no standing or right in the international community, since you want to isolate yourself like North Korea.
    All I can say is that it seems you value image over substance when it comes to world issues. I'd rather actually work towards accomplishing things, as an international community, than sit there and say we have accomplished something while really doing nothing substantitive. Its not shocking, to have a European(most likely an EU supporter) to value image over substance. How long have people in Europe been criticizing the US for its blind eye towards Africa, while doing nothing themselves? Its actually quite par for the course. Pass resolutions and treaties through the UN, as if they accomplish anything of substance, when in reality they don't. I remember an article, where the UN sent a team of 5 experts to determine why there was slaughter going on in Darfur. 5 experts, when there should have been military intervention. What a waste, but I suppose that the image of sending a team to Darfur to investigate the issue was a good enough effort.
    The problem, is that the leaders of the free world, aren't willing to make any sacrifices on behalf of others who are not free. I am certainley not an isolationist, something I argue with American libertarians with quite a bit. If I had a powerful voice, I would call on more action and less words from our fellow democratic allies. Not necessarily military action(although I never rule it out), but diplomacy that works, because it is backed up with teeth in the agreement. Not treaties for the sake of agreeing with each other, but treaties that give incentive for others to change. And not to change them into mass capitalist markets, or make them in our own image, but simply change that allows for their people to decide who represents them and their interests. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, should not be something that is reserved for Americans only, IMO. I believe that particular right should be inherent for all men(this includes women), and its the only American ideal I would push for in agreements. I don't care if they can own guns, or have a UHC system, thats up to them. I believe that making a sacrifice for others on that behalf, is more noble than making it for your own. The EU and UN attitude towards that goal is non-existant. And the American support for that goal is waning itself, as we are slowly beginning to turn inwards, because we simply cannot afford to do these things alone anymore. For too long we have shouldered the cost, burden, and sacrifice on behalf of free people around the word, mostly by ourselves. Others have made contributions, but the overall price that is paid lays heavily on our shoulders through the decades. I do not fear for whatever the future holds for our country, but I do fear for what will happen to other countries when Americans finally decide that our omni-presence around the world is simply too much of a burden to bear.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Which the US does not give a damn about.
    That's just it. With few exceptions, the US generally DOES carry out its international commitments - far more so than most states in the international system.
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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    That's where you are wrong. They are interdependent on so many levels. The old saying, if you cant practice what you preach...
    So what are you saying? You believe there are enough connections between nations that you should be able to interfere in others at will?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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