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Thread: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

  1. #51
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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    And thats the problem. Countries too busy, staring at themselves in the mirror, worried about their image to others, rather than being who they are and working towards actually making things better. Thats why documents like this one are absurd. Its nothing but a bunch of cheerleaders, trying to feel better about themselves.
    I actually agree somewhat. Countries should not be focused on image abroad but on fixing issues at home, since fixing them at home can mean we can claim moral superiority over nations that do not live up to the principles of the treaty.

    But such documents are not absurd because they draw focus on the issue (even limited) and if there is a problem then those countries by looking at themselves hopefully fix the issues that come out.

    Like it or not, image, internally and externally (country wise) matters. Do you really think that the image of Texas was helped by first having that mormon child abuse group living among them, and then the whole case falls apart because of US law being geared up to protect the children from said abuse due to "religious" reasons? Everyone with half a brain can see that the children in that community are being abused and there is plenty of evidence.. I mean it is the norm for girls to marry at what.. age 15? Come on..

    This treaty would only stipulate that the US in principle wants to live up to protecting children at all levels. That it in reality cant at the moment will only mean that the focus is put on that problem and hopefully legislation is put in place that makes it possible to rescue cult children that are being abused. Aint that a good thing?

    And no the US is not the only western nation having problems with such cults. Child abuse is rampant across the western world in all layers of society. The only difference is we dont force them to work in mines any more and use them as soldiers.
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  2. #52
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Bull****. Treaties are a piece of paper. The content of such treaties depend on what the countries want as content. If a treaty is designed with a "punishment" part then the treaty has more bite, however ultimately any country can say FU to the treaty and do what they want, without much consequence.

    Most treaties are nothing but documents of intent. However saying that, these documents of intent actually mean something to nations that cherish the principles of the content. Human rights for example. The Universal Declaration of Human rights is a treaty, with no "punishment" aspect in it. If a nation breaks human rights.. so what. However we cherish it because it's principles are an integral part of our democracies. But in principle, the UDHR is a worthless piece of paper from the view of nations that already live up to its principles and have those embedded in their own democratic tradition and legal framework.

    This document is a document of intent. Abuse of children world wide is a big issue. While the US and Europe has laws banning abuse of children for the most part, that does not mean that the intent of this document is any different than the intent of the UDHR. Is the US afraid of pissing off a bunch of religious freaks that abuse children? Or is the US just embarrassed that it's own legal system is not yet geared up 100% to combat the abuse of children when it conflicts with "religious beliefs"? To be frank, it is a sad day when religion is more important than the well being of our children.

    So as I said, this document is a document of intent, no different than the UDHR or any other treaty that dictates an intent of the signer to follow the principles of the document, either by changing ones laws or keeping laws in place that already live up to the document's intent.
    Bull**** back atcha. Treaties are laws and compel compliance by the signatories. If it doesn't benefit the US in some definable, measurable way, then we shouldn't touch it.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

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  3. #53
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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I actually agree somewhat. Countries should not be focused on image abroad but on fixing issues at home, since fixing them at home can mean we can claim moral superiority over nations that do not live up to the principles of the treaty.

    But such documents are not absurd because they draw focus on the issue (even limited) and if there is a problem then those countries by looking at themselves hopefully fix the issues that come out.

    Like it or not, image, internally and externally (country wise) matters. Do you really think that the image of Texas was helped by first having that mormon child abuse group living among them, and then the whole case falls apart because of US law being geared up to protect the children from said abuse due to "religious" reasons? Everyone with half a brain can see that the children in that community are being abused and there is plenty of evidence.. I mean it is the norm for girls to marry at what.. age 15? Come on..

    This treaty would only stipulate that the US in principle wants to live up to protecting children at all levels. That it in reality cant at the moment will only mean that the focus is put on that problem and hopefully legislation is put in place that makes it possible to rescue cult children that are being abused. Aint that a good thing?

    And no the US is not the only western nation having problems with such cults. Child abuse is rampant across the western world in all layers of society. The only difference is we dont force them to work in mines any more and use them as soldiers.
    So I assume China is a signatory to this treaty, since everybody but the US and Somalia have ratified it. So where do you believe there is a more systematic abuse of chidrens "rights", the US(a non signatory) or China(a signatory I assume). Signing it means nothing and is a waste of paper and ink. We don't need to sign a UN document, to pass our own legislation in regards to "the chidren".

    The situation in Texas is absurd, because it is not the norm in this country. You seem to be arguing that the situation in Texas is something that is widespread in the US. It is not. It is the exception, not the rule.
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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Do you really think that the image of Texas was helped by first having that mormon child abuse group living among them, and then the whole case falls apart because of US law being geared up to protect the children from said abuse due to "religious" reasons? Everyone with half a brain can see that the children in that community are being abused and there is plenty of evidence.. I mean it is the norm for girls to marry at what.. age 15? Come on.. .
    I think the Dallas Cowboys have done more to harm our image.

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Bull**** back atcha. Treaties are laws and compel compliance by the signatories. If it doesn't benefit the US in some definable, measurable way, then we shouldn't touch it.
    The hell they are lol. Treaties are NOT laws. They are agreements between countries to follow the principles of the treaty. Some treaties require that certain laws be changed or added but those are rare. Most treaties do however have to be certified by the countries legislative branch, aka the US congress in the US case, before they are accepted by said nation.
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  7. #57
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The hell they are lol. Treaties are NOT laws. They are agreements between countries to follow the principles of the treaty. Some treaties require that certain laws be changed or added but those are rare. Most treaties do however have to be certified by the countries legislative branch, aka the US congress in the US case, before they are accepted by said nation.
    The US Senate ratifies treaties, not Congress.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    So I assume China is a signatory to this treaty, since everybody but the US and Somalia have ratified it. So where do you believe there is a more systematic abuse of chidrens "rights", the US(a non signatory) or China(a signatory I assume). Signing it means nothing and is a waste of paper and ink. We don't need to sign a UN document, to pass our own legislation in regards to "the chidren".
    No one claimed that you had to sign a UN document to pass your own legislation! Hell most UN documents that the US and EU sign are already on the bloody law books in said areas. Its not us but the rest of the world. That is the whole point. How can we as democracies condemn nations for child exploitation, when we ourselves refuse to sign a treaty that is suppose to fight this on a global level?

    As for China being a signatory to this treaty.. they are to the UDHR too... your point being?

    Just because a country like China sings a treaty does not mean that they live up to the treaty. However countries around the world do not look up to China.. they do to the US and European countries. We are the guiding lights of democracy, women's rights, stopping child exploitation and so on (or at least we think we are ), and if we could care less about such treaties, why should other nations care about democracy, women's rights and so on?

    It is the same principle that Iran uses against the West on the Nuclear issue. Why should they be treated any difference when Israel is not being treated in the same way? Or when Chaves calls the US undemocratic and brings up the 2000 and 2004 elections. Like it or not, it gets damn hard diplomatically to work with such nations when we cant sign simple treaties that represent our values and not theirs plus in most cases, that the principles of the treaty already are on the law books of our countries. If treaties did not matter, then why signed UDHR? After all your constitution has this in, so why care about the rest of the world? What about non proliferation of nuclear technology? The US can just ban its citizens in selling or giving the information, that should be okay no? So why sign it? Israel did not, and they doing fine right? Nothing there to be critical about or any double standards right? Then again the US could not be bitching about Iran then could it?

    While this treaty is not in that league, the principles are still the same. We sign treaties because we agree with them, not because we have to change our laws drastically to live up to them.. that is usually the job of other non western nations. But in signing the treaties we send a very clear message.

    The situation in Texas is absurd, because it is not the norm in this country. You seem to be arguing that the situation in Texas is something that is widespread in the US. It is not. It is the exception, not the rule.
    Of course it is, but that was not the point. And it is a bit more wide spread than just Texas though Dont they have compounds all over the US? But yea it is the exception that is for sure. Just as it is the exception that Jehovas Witnesses are under investigation in several countries for the same bs. But that dont change the fact that these countries have signed the treaty and are investigating Jehovas Witnesses not because of the treaty, but because the legislation was on the books in the first place.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    The US Senate ratifies treaties, not Congress.
    Whatever. Same building.
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  10. #60
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Boxer Seeks to Ratify U.N. Treaty That May Erode U.S. Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Whatever. Same building.
    Yeah, the janitor's there too, but he doesn't get to ratify treaties either.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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