View Poll Results: Should visas allowing foreign workers into the US take precedence over US workers?

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Thread: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

  1. #11
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The point of the analogy is just that we should want the best people to set up shop HERE, instead of in India or China where they compete against American companies.
    Your analogy fails. The point of this is to stop companies who operate in America from sending jobs to outsourcing nations. India wouldn't pay American professionals ANYWHERE NEAR what we pay their professionals. So why should we allow companies that have contributed to the economic downturn by shipping jobs to India to receive American tax payer money?

    Except most of the Indian professionals who come to the United States will most likely stay here and become Americans. And as highly educated people, they'll be the movers and shakers of our society who will create businesses, make them profitable, and hire other Americans.
    Source?

    I can't see any reason why we shouldn't allow everyone in the world with at least a four-year college degree to immigrate to the United States, as long as they don't pose any kind of security threat.
    I'd like to see some statistics on that. The amount of money they send home (if any) can't possibly be anywhere close to the amount of money they spend on themselves here.
    Immigrants Send Money Home in Record Numbers

    However, the longer an immigrant resides in the United States, the more money they tend to send to family back home. For example, recent immigrants tend to send $200 or $300 home on a monthly basis. Individuals who have been in the United States longer and are better off financially tend to send money less often but in larger amounts. It is estimated that worldwide remittances amount to more than $126 billion. Remittances have become a considerable force in the economy of many countries. Among the countries that receive the most in remittances are Mexico, the Philippines and India. Last year Mexico received more than $17 billion in remittances.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Your analogy fails. The point of this is to stop companies who operate in America from sending jobs to outsourcing nations. India wouldn't pay American professionals ANYWHERE NEAR what we pay their professionals. So why should we allow companies that have contributed to the economic downturn by shipping jobs to India to receive American tax payer money?
    This thread is not about outsourcing jobs to India. It's about American visa rules for Indian immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    Source?
    According to Wiki, Indian-Americans are one of the fastest-growing ethnic groups in this country. The population of Asian Indians in the United States increased ten times faster than the population as a whole. One would have to assume that there is a correlation between immigration rates and citizenship rates.

    Additionally, 67% of Indian-Americans have a bachelor's degree or better. I see no valid reason not to let them immigrate to the United States. Protecting jobs for less-qualified native-born Americans is not a valid reason (especially since many of these immigrants will inevitably create jobs themselves). Economic nationalism is virtually always self-destructive, without a single exception that I can think of.

    Our immigration laws are, quite frankly, absurd. All too often, Indian students come here to go to college...and then the US government refuses to give them a visa when they graduate. So they go back to India (or they go to Canada or the UK or Australia) and make great contributions to those countries instead of ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    OK, but how does that compare to the amount of money that they spend on themselves, here in this country? If they're sending a few hundred bucks to a month to family members in India, that's not really a big deal. A lot of Americans spend their money on far dumber things.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-26-09 at 10:32 PM.
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This thread is not about outsourcing jobs to India. It's about American visa rules for Indian immigrants.
    No. It's about American company's bringing them here to work for less money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    According to Wiki, Indian-Americans are one of the fastest-growing ethnic groups in this country. The population of Asian Indians in the United States increased ten times faster than the population as a whole. One would have to assume that there is a correlation between immigration rates and citizenship rates.
    One would also have to assume each time someone from another country comes here to work, it leaves one more citizen with no job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Additionally, 67% of Indian-Americans have a bachelor's degree or better. I see no valid reason not to let them immigrate to the United States. Protecting jobs for less-qualified native-born Americans is not a valid reason (especially since many of these immigrants will inevitably create jobs themselves). Economic nationalism is virtually always self-destructive, without a single exception that I can think of.
    Please post some evidence that an American born and educated engineer is somehow less qualified than an Asian engineer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Our immigration laws are, quite frankly, absurd. All too often, Indian students come here to go to college...and then the US government refuses to give them a visa when they graduate. So they go back to India (or they go to Canada or the UK or Australia) and make great contributions to those countries instead of ours.
    Good, let them go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, but how does that compare to the amount of money that they spend on themselves, here in this country? If they're sending a few hundred bucks to a month to family members in India, that's not really a big deal. A lot of Americans spend their money on far dumber things.
    It really doesn't, and I agree with you here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What if it is a specialist? That there in the US does not exist any or it is very hard to find any, that can do the kind of work the company is looking for?
    Oh look, PeteEU gets a hard-on for free-market economics as soon he thinks it won't benefit America.

  5. #15
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No. It's about American company's bringing them here to work for less money.
    And what's wrong with that? It brings more smart people to America and reduces the cost to the consumer for the goods/services in those industries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    One would also have to assume each time someone from another country comes here to work, it leaves one more citizen with no job.
    But most of them will eventually become citizens themselves. And a good many of them will create jobs for citizens themselves. Immigrants have been assimilating and succeeding in this country since before it was a country. The economic pie is not a fixed size where more people means smaller pieces. If that were the case, then one would expect the standard of living in 21st century America to be much worse than it was in 18th century America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Please post some evidence that an American born and educated engineer is somehow less qualified than an Asian engineer?
    Not in every case, but the market can decide that. And by less-qualified, I'm also taking cost into account. Presumably, you could hire a recent immigrant from India to do your taxes for less than you would pay for the same quality service from a native-born American. And if that is not the case, then wages won't decline anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Good, let them go.
    Why? What is wrong with allowing talented, well-educated people to immigrate to this country and to start businesses that employ Americans?
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  6. #16
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This thread is not about outsourcing jobs to India. It's about American visa rules for Indian immigrants.
    Ummm that's called outsourcing :

    Outsourcing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Outsourcing involves the transfer of the management and/or day-to-day execution of an entire business function to an external service provider.[2] The client organization and the supplier enter into a contractual agreement that defines the transferred services. Under the agreement the supplier acquires the means of production in the form of a transfer of people, assets and other resources from the client. The client agrees to procure the services from the supplier for the term of the contract. Business segments typically outsourced include information technology, human resources, facilities, real estate management, and accounting. Many companies also outsource customer support and call center functions like telemarketing, CAD drafting, customer service, market research, manufacturing, designing, web development, content writing, ghostwriting and engineering.
    No stimulus money for them. Sorry.

    According to Wiki, Indian-Americans are one of the fastest-growing ethnic groups in this country. The population of Asian Indians in the United States increased ten times faster than the population as a whole. One would have to assume that there is a correlation between immigration rates and citizenship rates.

    Additionally, 67% of Indian-Americans have a bachelor's degree or better. I see no valid reason not to let them immigrate to the United States. Protecting jobs for less-qualified native-born Americans is not a valid reason (especially since many of these immigrants will inevitably create jobs themselves). Economic nationalism is virtually always self-destructive, without a single exception that I can think of.

    Our immigration laws are, quite frankly, absurd. All too often, Indian students come here to go to college...and then the US government refuses to give them a visa when they graduate. So they go back to India (or they go to Canada or the UK or Australia) and make great contributions to those countries instead of ours.
    Protecting jobs for less qualified born Americans? You're talking like an engineer from America is not the same as an engineer from India. Ridiculous. These companies aren't interested in hiring people based on expertise they're interested in hiring people based on what they're going to pay. If they choose to not hire Americans then I do not see why they should get the tax dollars of that same American they're not willing to give a job to.

    OK, but how does that compare to the amount of money that they spend on themselves, here in this country? If they're sending a few hundred bucks to a month to family members in India, that's not really a big deal. A lot of Americans spend their money on far dumber things.
    Money that should stay here vs. Money going to other countries. Sorry. I'll take money staying here.
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  7. #17
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Ummm that's called outsourcing :
    No it isn't. Outsourcing is the when one company hires another company to perform some service that it would otherwise have to perform itself. More colloquially, it refers to companies setting up shop in other nations instead of locally. In any case, bringing Indian workers to the company's American facilities is not outsourcing. And even if it were, you can call it whatever you like, but it still doesn't change the fact that open borders for college-educated workers is an excellent idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    No stimulus money for them. Sorry.
    Obama summed it up quite well when talking about the banks. The same can apply to other stimuli: "In a time of crisis, we cannot afford to govern out of anger, or yield to the politics of the moment."

    There is no reason to encourage economic nationalism at ANY time. But to allow a company to go bankrupt because they chose to do the responsible thing and cut their costs, while rewarding other companies for NOT trying to cut their costs, is horrible economic policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    Protecting jobs for less qualified born Americans? You're talking like an engineer from America is not the same as an engineer from India. Ridiculous. These companies aren't interested in hiring people based on expertise they're interested in hiring people based on what they're going to pay. If they choose to not hire Americans then I do not see why they should get the tax dollars of that same American they're not willing to give a job to.
    Well logically, if I can hire an Indian programmer in California for $30K or an equally talented American programmer in California for $60K, I'm going to pick the Indian. It stands to reason, then, that I could get a BETTER Indian programmer in California for $60K...which makes the American less qualified.

    If he isn't less qualified, then he has nothing to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    Money that should stay here vs. Money going to other countries. Sorry. I'll take money staying here.
    Why? It doesn't just vanish down a black hole as soon as it leaves our borders.
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And what's wrong with that? It brings more smart people to America and reduces the cost to the consumer for the goods/services in those industries.
    When out of work Americans can no longer afford those goods, who wins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But most of them will eventually become citizens themselves. And a good many of them will create jobs for citizens themselves.
    Great! People who are citizens here can look forward to working in a gas station, or better yet a 7-Eleven.

    Dare to dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Immigrants have been assimilating and succeeding in this country since before it was a country.
    Yes they have. Times change and so do the considerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The economic pie is not a fixed size where more people means smaller pieces. If that were the case, then one would expect the standard of living in 21st century America to be much worse than it was in 18th century America.
    Proof?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not in every case, but the market can decide that. And by less-qualified, I'm also taking cost into account. Presumably, you could hire a recent immigrant from India to do your taxes for less than you would pay for the same quality service from a native-born American. And if that is not the case, then wages won't decline anyway.
    This is exactly the kind of thinking that is ruining the standard of living and economy of this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why? What is wrong with allowing talented, well-educated people to immigrate to this country and to start businesses that employ Americans?
    No. It is wrong for the company to go outside of the country and pay for workers to come here and displace American citizens. Then expect our tax dollars to go into their pockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #19
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    When out of work Americans can no longer afford those goods, who wins?
    This assumes that there is a "lump of labor" which is fixed in size. This theory has been thoroughly discredited by economists. New jobs can and will be created, even as other jobs are eliminated or filled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Great! People who are citizens here can look forward to working in a gas station, or better yet a 7-Eleven.

    Dare to dream.
    Contrary to popular belief, Indian immigrants start businesses other than 7-Elevens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Yes they have. Times change and so do the considerations.
    Fair enough. What exactly is different about modern times versus the past, that would prevent the same idea from applying to our immigration policy? Immigrants came here from Ireland, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Immigrants came here from Italy, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Immigrants came here from Poland, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Immigrants came here from Japan, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Etc, etc.

    You'd think by now more people would've noticed this pattern. But nope, every nativist of every generation assumes that he is living in special times where the broad historical economic patterns don't apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Proof?
    Uhh I just gave you proof:

    The economic pie is not a fixed size where more people means smaller pieces. If that were the case, then one would expect the standard of living in 21st century America to be much worse than it was in 18th century America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    This is exactly the kind of thinking that is ruining the standard of living and economy of this country.
    Ruining the standard of living? Ruining the economy? Short-term economic problems aside, has the standard of living EVER been higher in America than it has been in the last 15-20 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    No. It is wrong for the company to go outside of the country and pay for workers to come here and displace American citizens. Then expect our tax dollars to go into their pockets.
    Except the government isn't giving them tax dollars for the purpose of hiring a specific group of people. They're giving them tax dollars because A) their whole industry has gone to **** and the industry as a whole is vital to our economy, i.e. banking; B) the company is "too big to fail," which is dubious and subjective but nevertheless is irrelevant to who they hire; or C) to fulfill some social goal that the government has deemed important, i.e. alternative energy companies.

    In none of those cases does the company expect tax dollars for the purpose of giving jobs to Indians instead of Americans. Who they hire is pretty much irrelevant.
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  10. #20
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    Re: Anger grows in India over US visa rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This assumes that there is a "lump of labor" which is fixed in size. This theory has been thoroughly discredited by economists.
    See comment below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    New jobs can and will be created, even as other jobs are eliminated or filled.
    Engineering and high tech jobs are not being eliminated, they are being filled by non-citizens for a lower wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Contrary to popular belief, Indian immigrants start businesses other than 7-Elevens.
    I was being sarcastic but please point out the wave of high tech Indian company's or any others now in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Fair enough. What exactly is different about modern times versus the past, that would prevent the same idea from applying to our immigration policy? Immigrants came here from Ireland, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Immigrants came here from Italy, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Immigrants came here from Poland, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Immigrants came here from Japan, the troglodytes huffed and puffed about job loss, and the immigrants (and country as a whole) thrived. Etc, etc.
    You are talking about a country that was about to make major technological jumps. The jumps are getting smaller as are the job base for the average citizen.

    We are no longer an industrial giant like we were at the time.

    Times change as I said and so does the circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You'd think by now more people would've noticed this pattern. But nope, every nativist of every generation assumes that he is living in special times where the broad historical economic patterns don't apply.
    We have noticed the pattern but it no longer applies to the situation at hand. We are dealing with MUCH higher populations and greater competition in a global economy. Things not in the mix until the last 20 years.

    Almost nothing from the last 200 years applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uhh I just gave you proof:

    The economic pie is not a fixed size where more people means smaller pieces. If that were the case, then one would expect the standard of living in 21st century America to be much worse than it was in 18th century America.
    That is not proof. The standard of living has declined steadily for Americans in the last 30 years. It is also about to get worse...

    "There's no question the American consumer is hurting in the face of a burst housing bubble, financial market meltdown and rising unemployment.
    But "the worst is yet to come," according to Howard Davidowitz, chairman of Davidowitz & Associates, who believes American's standard of living is undergoing a "permanent change" - and not for the better as a result of:

    An $8 trillion negative wealth effect from declining home values.
    A $10 trillion negative wealth effect from weakened capital markets.
    A $14 trillion consumer debt load amid "exploding unemployment", leading to "exploding bankruptcies."
    "The average American used to be able to borrow to buy a home, send their kids to a good school [and] buy a car," Davidowitz says. "A lot of that is gone."

    Going forward, the veteran retail industry consultant foresees higher savings rate and people trading down in both the goods and services they buy - as well as their aspirations.

    The end of rampant consumerism is ultimately a good thing, he says, but the unraveling of an economy built on debt-fueled spending will be painful for years to come.
    " - "Worst Is Yet to Come" Americans' Standard of Living Permanently Changed: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Ruining the standard of living? Ruining the economy? Short-term economic problems aside, has the standard of living EVER been higher in America than it has been in the last 15-20 years?
    "Median Wages have been on the decline in the United States since 1974. In 2004, the median income for a man in his 30s was $35,010. Adjusted for inflation, that's 12 percent less than what men the same age were making in 1974." - Standard of living in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Between 2000 and 2005, consumption grew among high-income households, remained stagnant among middle-income households, and declined among low-income households. Households in all income categories saw their average before-tax incomes decline between 2000 (the peak of the last business cycle) and 2005 in inflation-adjusted terms. Still, high-income families were able to increase their consumption spending by using their generous tax cuts, prior savings (or reductions in new savings), and borrowing. Low-income families, in contrast, were forced to cut back on expenditures, since they received only tiny tax cuts, had few savings, and had little recourse to borrowing." - Most Americans Treading Water or Falling Further Behind, Consumption Data Show Only High Earners Spending More Than Before Recession, 11/28/06

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Except the government isn't giving them tax dollars for the purpose of hiring a specific group of people. They're giving them tax dollars because A) their whole industry has gone to **** and the industry as a whole is vital to our economy, i.e. banking; B) the company is "too big to fail," which is dubious and subjective but nevertheless is irrelevant to who they hire; or C) to fulfill some social goal that the government has deemed important, i.e. alternative energy companies.
    The company's that do this are losing tax breaks for bringing in outside workers.

    I say good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    In none of those cases does the company expect tax dollars for the purpose of giving jobs to Indians instead of Americans. Who they hire is pretty much irrelevant.
    Tell that to a couple engineers I know who are still out of work for exactly that reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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