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Europe sucks! :lol:And? There is one hell of a difference between questioning a person tortured by someone else in another country than doing the actual torture in your own backyard.
I sickens me that the Brits questioned a person they knew had been tortured, but it does not surprise me one bit that it goes on. Plausible deniablity or whatever its called.. an excuse that is used constantly in our twisted world and used through out the ages.
And in a crazy world where the lines are blurred between what is right and wrong and what is good and bad, one can have some comfort in the fact that the UK did not actively torture these men according to the reports or anyone else as far as we know
However there is still the question about Gitmo and the UK actively participating in torture there, but we do not know yet the extent of their participation there, but we do have enough to suspect it was possibly more than just "questioning" people after the fact.. and THAT will be a far bigger scandal and shock than this frankly if we ever find out the truth.
So yes, Europe still holds a somewhat "moral superiority" over the US and Israel in the case of torture, even though that "moral superiority" is getting eroded with every investigation and scandal.. we have as of yet in this war of terror.. I mean on terror, actively tortured people on our own soil and in our own prisons as far as we know and that is a significant difference to the US and Israel. We also don't claim that some techniques are "not torture" when they so clearly are.
Still nothing from the Euromopes. Strange how that works. :rofl
Been away otherwise i would have been over this fast--
It has also emerged that New York-based HRW detailed its concerns in a letter to the UK government last October but has yet to receive a response.
The letter arrived at the same time that the Attorney General was tasked with deciding if Scotland Yard should begin a criminal investigation into British security agents' treatment of Binyam Mohamed. Crown prosecutors are currently weighing up the evidence.
--snip--
Britain's former chief legal adviser, Lord Goldsmith, said that the Foreign Office would want to examine any British involvement in torture allegations very carefully and, if necessary, bring individuals "to book" to ensure such behaviour was "eradicated".
Doesn't matter what you say Laila, we're "Euromopes" or "Liberals" whatever we say think or feel.
Well Dan, during the 4 hour span between Posts #1 and 2, Euro's (mid morning in Europe) did indeed log in and visit the *BN* forum. They couldn't have missed the story. It was right there at the top. That is precisely why I put up post #2. I just love how you somehow know the way it went down when you weren't even here.Tashah, I just love how you post this thread on a Sunday morning and are surprised when other people are too busy living their lives to answer you straight away.
Tashah, I just love how you post this thread on a Sunday morning and are surprised when other people are too busy living their lives to answer you straight away.
That's enough out of you, you Liberal Euromope! :2razz:
Well Dan, during the 4 hour span between Posts #1 and 2, Euro's (mid morning in Europe) did indeed log in and visit the *BN* forum. They couldn't have missed the story. It was right there at the top. That is precisely why I put up post #2. I just love how you somehow know the way it went down when you weren't even here.
Isn't it.
I wonder what valuable info they got from their suspects.
I don't think it'll satisfy them. We're outcasts among Europhiles because the British public doesn't much like the EUroplot.Source: Guardian UK
This one is for some of our EU members who love to bash the US for condoning torture. Pot... meet kettle.
What is a Euro? I thought it was the coin of the EUroplot. You seem to be treating Europeans as nationality.Well Dan, during the 4 hour span between Posts #1 and 2, Euro's (mid morning in Europe) did indeed log in and visit the *BN* forum. They couldn't have missed the story. It was right there at the top. That is precisely why I put up post #2. I just love how you somehow know the way it went down when you weren't even here.
Screw that, we can punish our own criminals and have been doing so for a millenia, we don't need some despotic, usupring power ,which often operates contrary to ancient common law principles, to do it for us.B
I hope all them UK Agents are fired, stripped of their position, their superiors jailed. Them jailed. If this goes higher into the Government, then i would want them infront of EuCofHR
****ing priceless.
Deny, deny, deny.
Look mate I'm not one of them but you do talk a lot of bollocks about Europe and you do seem to despise it. Obviously if that includes Britain then I take a great offense and even if it doesn't, and despite my anti-EU position, I don't think there is much ground for a lot of it.No. My hate for the average Euro sentiment is quite tasteful. It allows me to see past the surface BS that Europe's been under for decades.
Oh....as an American my place is to bend over for the European right? His spill of "moral superiority" is supposed to be welcomed and groveled over? Typical. One up? With an abundance of Euro BS to pull from just in the twentieth century, "one up" is easy. You people are a joke. You whine about a few cases and attempt to equate that to what you've done and continue to do.
And yes...I do despise the European attitude displayed by PeteEU, Maximus Zebra, and yourself. I do choose to deny you your celebrated self-righteous parties that merely allow you to gloss over the overwhelming guilt and depravity with European stamps upon them.
I heard they caught a guy who was totally innocent. When he couldn't take any more he told them that France was planning on attacking the Brits. It's all over the news how England is planning to declare war on France... all based on false admissions in order to stop torture.
Sound familiar :roll:
Torture doesn't work. It just makes the torturee feel better. :mrgreen:
If I took the time to post historical examples of torture working and providing needed intel, then how would you change your argument? Perhaps you wouldn't be an absolutist on the issue?
this has nothing to do with your claim that "torture never works".I Part of dubya's "evidence" to invade Iraq was false confessions brought on by torture.
This has nothing to do with your claim that torture never works.Can you excuse over a million dead based on that false confession?
this too has nothing to do with your absolutist claim that "torture never works".Do those kind of odds bother your sleep, even a wink? :roll:
this has nothing to do with your claim that "torture never works".
I mentioned nothing of GB or Iraq.
Proud of dishonesty?Yeah, I noticed. :doh
Strawman.While I love the series, I have a news flash fer ya. Jack Bauer is not real. There are no ticking nuclear bombs or terrorists with uzis ready to attack the White House that would warrant gauging someone's eyes out for info.
They would torture and rape your nephew whether we tortured or not. Don't be so naive as to think that torture is merely reciprocation.Because of that spoiled rich cheerleader traitorist illegally ordering innocent prisoners to be tortured, my family now has to worry that, if my nephew is captured, he will be tortured in kind. And we, as a country, will not be able to object on moral grounds... anymore!
Perhaps you did not understand my question?I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!
Strawman.You've swallowed dubya's load of fear hook, line and sinker! This country has survived, thrived for over 200 years by choosing to take the higher ground. After capturing over 1,000 Hessians, in the Battle of Trenton, General George Washington ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting.
Irrelevant.In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
Irrelevant again.John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement.
Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Red-herring. Red herring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaYou'll forgive my judgement when I tell you I would follow Washington, and Adams, in a moral argument welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll before I gave "Don Bush" and his thugs even an audience. :usflag2:
It works just fine.I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!
Kiriakou told his story to ABC News’s Brian Ross, and the network posted the full, unedited text of the interview on its website.
Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan in 2002. Shot three times before being caught, his life was saved by U.S. doctors. When he recovered, Kiriakou was among the first to speak to him.
Zubaydah was talkative, but he gave the CIA no usable intelligence.
CIA interrogators tried a variety of techniques of escalating severity on Zubaydah. Each one had to be specifically authorized in advance at the highest levels of the CIA.
Still, Zubaydah resisted. Finally the interrogation worked its way up to waterboarding.
“Was it used on Zubaydah?” Ross asked Kiriakou.
“It was.”
“And was it successful?”
“It was.”
After the waterboarding session, Zubaydah was a different man. “He told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night,” Kiriakou said, “and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured.”
U.S. interrogators, fearing another major attack — remember, this was just months after 9/11 — worked fast. According to Kiriakou, Zubaydah provided information that helped stop a number of al Qaeda actions.
“So in your view the waterboarding broke him?” Ross asked.
“I think it did, yes.”
“And did it make a difference?”
“It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”
“No doubt about that? That’s not some hype?”
“No doubt.”
Look mate I'm not one of them but you do talk a lot of bollocks about Europe and you do seem to despise it. Obviously if that includes Britain then I take a great offense and even if it doesn't, and despite my anti-EU position, I don't think there is much ground for a lot of it.
So yes as it stands now in this time in history, Europe has a far cleaner record (not perfect, far from it) on torture than the US. If we go back in time, then no, but then again human history regardless of nation or ethnic group has used torture since the dawn of time...
Talk about rewriting history to fit your world view... gezzz.
It is a shame it has changed. Unfortunately the French allowed Heath to take us into the bloody EUroplot......and aren't you a cast out according to the French in history? Hell, soon after WWII, France was quite clear about where Britian stood in accordance to "Europe." You think this has changed? [