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UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

If any nation is in conflict with another nation, then GC is usually enforced.
However when any Nation is fighting an unidentifiable Terrorist Organization, and they happen to capture one of these guys, they will do what it takes to get information from them.
Israel has and will continue to torture, UK tortures, France tortures, USA tortures.
Any nation that feels it is being attacked by a non National force will upon capturing someone from that force, torture them to gain information.
Let he who is without sin cast first stone.
Should it be condoned?
Should Terrorism be condoned?
Instead of getting all high and mighty, look at the realism of what Terrorism means to your own Nation.
 
PeteEU said:
And? There is one hell of a difference between questioning a person tortured by someone else in another country than doing the actual torture in your own backyard.

I sickens me that the Brits questioned a person they knew had been tortured, but it does not surprise me one bit that it goes on. Plausible deniablity or whatever its called.. an excuse that is used constantly in our twisted world and used through out the ages.

And in a crazy world where the lines are blurred between what is right and wrong and what is good and bad, one can have some comfort in the fact that the UK did not actively torture these men according to the reports or anyone else as far as we know

However there is still the question about Gitmo and the UK actively participating in torture there, but we do not know yet the extent of their participation there, but we do have enough to suspect it was possibly more than just "questioning" people after the fact.. and THAT will be a far bigger scandal and shock than this frankly if we ever find out the truth.

So yes, Europe still holds a somewhat "moral superiority" over the US and Israel in the case of torture, even though that "moral superiority" is getting eroded with every investigation and scandal.. we have as of yet in this war of terror.. I mean on terror, actively tortured people on our own soil and in our own prisons as far as we know and that is a significant difference to the US and Israel. We also don't claim that some techniques are "not torture" when they so clearly are.
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Europe sucks! :lol:
 
Tashah said:
Still nothing from the Euromopes. Strange how that works. :rofl
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Been away otherwise i would have been over this fast.

I hope all them UK Agents are fired, stripped of their position, their superiors jailed. Them jailed. If this goes higher into the Government, then i would want them infront of EuCofHR
There is no moral equivalent between us torturing them and us giving someone for others to torture them
 
Laila said:
Been away otherwise i would have been over this fast--
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Doesn't matter what you say Laila, we're "Euromopes" or "Liberals" whatever we say think or feel.

Anyway - from the linked article -
It has also emerged that New York-based HRW detailed its concerns in a letter to the UK government last October but has yet to receive a response.

The letter arrived at the same time that the Attorney General was tasked with deciding if Scotland Yard should begin a criminal investigation into British security agents' treatment of Binyam Mohamed. Crown prosecutors are currently weighing up the evidence.

--snip--

Britain's former chief legal adviser, Lord Goldsmith, said that the Foreign Office would want to examine any British involvement in torture allegations very carefully and, if necessary, bring individuals "to book" to ensure such behaviour was "eradicated".
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The difference is that the allegations are being investigated, not brushed under a carpet or debated to see if "waterboarding is torture or not".

What gets me however is that British agents colluding with Pakistani torturers brings the anti-europeans out like a rash - while british agents or airports colluding to allow US rendition flights passed through this forum as quickly as a bad dose of typhoid ridden food through somone's gut.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Tashah, I just love how you post this thread on a Sunday morning and are surprised when other people are too busy living their lives to answer you straight away.
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Well Dan, during the 4 hour span between Posts #1 and 2, Euro's (mid morning in Europe) did indeed log in and visit the *BN* forum. They couldn't have missed the story. It was right there at the top. That is precisely why I put up post #2. I just love how you somehow know the way it went down when you weren't even here.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Tashah, I just love how you post this thread on a Sunday morning and are surprised when other people are too busy living their lives to answer you straight away.
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Thank you.

Tucker Case said:
That's enough out of you, you Liberal Euromope! :2razz:
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:rofl Witty repartee and intelligent conversation at last. I was at the "Liberal Euromope" conference when this thread was created so didn't have time to...

Shutting up. :lol:
 
Tashah said:
Well Dan, during the 4 hour span between Posts #1 and 2, Euro's (mid morning in Europe) did indeed log in and visit the *BN* forum. They couldn't have missed the story. It was right there at the top. That is precisely why I put up post #2. I just love how you somehow know the way it went down when you weren't even here.
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I can't decide which is funnier:
  • My original thought, which is that you posted this thread, waited 3 hours, and then barked at the Europeans who frequent DP for not responding quick enough while not taking into account that they might be out having lives of their own
  • The fact that you sat there and watched who went where on the forum so that you could justify, at least in your own mind, barking at the Europeans who frequent DP for not responding quick enough
Besides, since when are you a credible source on which European members were doing what where when on the forum? You're obviously out to put one "in your face," otherwise you wouldn't have followed-up on your own thread the way you did.

Did you actually want to get their perspective on the OP, or did you just want to go "neah neah neah?"
 
zimmer said:
Isn't it.
I wonder what valuable info they got from their suspects.
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I heard they caught a guy who was totally innocent. When he couldn't take any more he told them that France was planning on attacking the Brits. It's all over the news how England is planning to declare war on France... all based on false admissions in order to stop torture.

Sound familiar:confused: :roll:


Torture doesn't work. It just makes the torturee feel better. :mrgreen:
 
Tashah said:
Source: Guardian UK

This one is for some of our EU members who love to bash the US for condoning torture. Pot... meet kettle.
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I don't think it'll satisfy them. We're outcasts among Europhiles because the British public doesn't much like the EUroplot.

These people should be arrested if they were torturing people or encouraging it. Such behaviour is contrary to the bill of rights. Anyone tried should however be tried in Britain only.
Well Dan, during the 4 hour span between Posts #1 and 2, Euro's (mid morning in Europe) did indeed log in and visit the *BN* forum. They couldn't have missed the story. It was right there at the top. That is precisely why I put up post #2. I just love how you somehow know the way it went down when you weren't even here.
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What is a Euro? I thought it was the coin of the EUroplot. You seem to be treating Europeans as nationality.
 
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Laila said:
B
I hope all them UK Agents are fired, stripped of their position, their superiors jailed. Them jailed. If this goes higher into the Government, then i would want them infront of EuCofHR
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Screw that, we can punish our own criminals and have been doing so for a millenia, we don't need some despotic, usupring power ,which often operates contrary to ancient common law principles, to do it for us.
 
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RightinNYC said:
****ing priceless.

Deny, deny, deny.
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To be fair Pete is not an Englishmen. He should not be held responsible for anything we do in the same way don't need him apologising for us. Europe, believe it or not is not a country, and God willing it will never be one, at least with Britain in it.
 
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GySgt said:
No. My hate for the average Euro sentiment is quite tasteful. It allows me to see past the surface BS that Europe's been under for decades.



Oh....as an American my place is to bend over for the European right? His spill of "moral superiority" is supposed to be welcomed and groveled over? Typical. One up? With an abundance of Euro BS to pull from just in the twentieth century, "one up" is easy. You people are a joke. You whine about a few cases and attempt to equate that to what you've done and continue to do.

And yes...I do despise the European attitude displayed by PeteEU, Maximus Zebra, and yourself. I do choose to deny you your celebrated self-righteous parties that merely allow you to gloss over the overwhelming guilt and depravity with European stamps upon them.
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Look mate I'm not one of them but you do talk a lot of bollocks about Europe and you do seem to despise it. Obviously if that includes Britain then I take a great offense and even if it doesn't, and despite my anti-EU position, I don't think there is much ground for a lot of it.
 
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ADK_Forever said:
I heard they caught a guy who was totally innocent. When he couldn't take any more he told them that France was planning on attacking the Brits. It's all over the news how England is planning to declare war on France... all based on false admissions in order to stop torture.

Sound familiar:confused: :roll:


Torture doesn't work. It just makes the torturee feel better. :mrgreen:
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If I took the time to post historical examples of torture working and providing needed intel, then how would you change your argument? Perhaps you wouldn't be an absolutist on the issue?
 
scourge99 said:
If I took the time to post historical examples of torture working and providing needed intel, then how would you change your argument? Perhaps you wouldn't be an absolutist on the issue?
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The "mushroom cloud" fear-based reasoning doesn't fly. Part of dubya's "evidence" to invade Iraq was false confessions brought on by torture. Can you excuse over a million dead based on that false confession? Do those kind of odds bother your sleep, even a wink? :roll:
 
ADK_Forever said:
I Part of dubya's "evidence" to invade Iraq was false confessions brought on by torture.
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this has nothing to do with your claim that "torture never works".

I mentioned nothing of GB or Iraq. This is a textbook example of a strawman.

Can you excuse over a million dead based on that false confession?
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This has nothing to do with your claim that torture never works.

I mentioned nothing of Iraq or reasons for the war. This is another example of a strawman.

Do those kind of odds bother your sleep, even a wink? :roll:
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this too has nothing to do with your absolutist claim that "torture never works".

I asked a simple question: if I can show historical evidence where consequential intel was extracted using torture then would that change your mind that torture "never works"?

You don't have to agree with torture or the iraq war or George Bush. So please, don't try those strawmen again.
 
scourge99 said:
this has nothing to do with your claim that "torture never works".

I mentioned nothing of GB or Iraq.
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Yeah, I noticed. :doh

"24" just went off the air. Maybe you should DVR it. While I love the series, I have a news flash fer ya. Jack Bauer is not real. There are no ticking nuclear bombs or terrorists with uzis ready to attack the White House that would warrant gauging someone's eyes out for info.

My nephew is in Iraq right now. Because of that spoiled rich cheerleader traitorist illegally ordering innocent prisoners to be tortured, my family now has to worry that, if my nephew is captured, he will be tortured in kind. And we, as a country, will not be able to object on moral grounds... anymore!

I'm no 60's peace nik but, I know the numbers don't jive. I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!

You've swallowed dubya's load of fear hook, line and sinker! This country has survived, thrived for over 200 years by choosing to take the higher ground. After capturing over 1,000 Hessians, in the Battle of Trenton, General George Washington ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting.

In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement.
Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."

You'll forgive my judgement when I tell you I would follow Washington, and Adams, in a moral argument welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll before I gave "Don Bush" and his thugs even an audience. :usflag2:
 
ADK_Forever said:
Yeah, I noticed. :doh
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Proud of dishonesty?

ADK_Forever said:
While I love the series, I have a news flash fer ya. Jack Bauer is not real. There are no ticking nuclear bombs or terrorists with uzis ready to attack the White House that would warrant gauging someone's eyes out for info.
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Strawman.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ADK_Forever said:
Because of that spoiled rich cheerleader traitorist illegally ordering innocent prisoners to be tortured, my family now has to worry that, if my nephew is captured, he will be tortured in kind. And we, as a country, will not be able to object on moral grounds... anymore!
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They would torture and rape your nephew whether we tortured or not. Don't be so naive as to think that torture is merely reciprocation.

Specious argument: specious - Wiktionary

ADK_Forever said:
I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!
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Perhaps you did not understand my question?

Otherwise you wouldn't make another strawman. Please take your time and read my question.

I asked a simple question: if I can show historical evidence where consequential intel was extracted using torture then would that change your mind that torture "never works"?

You don't have to agree with torture or the Iraq war or George Bush. So please, don't try those strawmen again.

Notice how I don't presume that torture works 50% of the time, or 10% of the time or 90%. Just that it has worked in the past. Has the subtle difference sunk in yet?

ADK_Forever said:
You've swallowed dubya's load of fear hook, line and sinker! This country has survived, thrived for over 200 years by choosing to take the higher ground. After capturing over 1,000 Hessians, in the Battle of Trenton, General George Washington ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting.
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Strawman.

ADK_Forever said:
In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
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Irrelevant.

ADK_Forever said:
John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement.
Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
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Irrelevant again.

ADK_Forever said:
You'll forgive my judgement when I tell you I would follow Washington, and Adams, in a moral argument welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll before I gave "Don Bush" and his thugs even an audience. :usflag2:
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Red-herring. Red herring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Want to try again?
 
Simple two wrongs doesn't make one right and UK have been USA greatest supporter in the "war on terror". Also because UK have done a miniature version of USA:s torture by allied dictator program doesn't mean that USA allied torture by allied dictator or the direct action of US officials is ok. That at the same time UK of course should be critized for their actions.
 
ADK_Forever said:
I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!
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It works just fine.
Just because you shoot and don't always score doesn't mean you should never shoot, especially when lives on our side can be spared.

TheHill.com - When waterboarding works
Kiriakou told his story to ABC News’s Brian Ross, and the network posted the full, unedited text of the interview on its website.

Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan in 2002. Shot three times before being caught, his life was saved by U.S. doctors. When he recovered, Kiriakou was among the first to speak to him.

Zubaydah was talkative, but he gave the CIA no usable intelligence.

CIA interrogators tried a variety of techniques of escalating severity on Zubaydah. Each one had to be specifically authorized in advance at the highest levels of the CIA.

Still, Zubaydah resisted. Finally the interrogation worked its way up to waterboarding.

“Was it used on Zubaydah?” Ross asked Kiriakou.

“It was.”

“And was it successful?”

“It was.”

After the waterboarding session, Zubaydah was a different man. “He told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night,” Kiriakou said, “and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured.”
U.S. interrogators, fearing another major attack — remember, this was just months after 9/11 — worked fast. According to Kiriakou, Zubaydah provided information that helped stop a number of al Qaeda actions.

“So in your view the waterboarding broke him?” Ross asked.

“I think it did, yes.”

“And did it make a difference?”

“It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”

“No doubt about that? That’s not some hype?”

“No doubt.”
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Wessexman said:
Look mate I'm not one of them but you do talk a lot of bollocks about Europe and you do seem to despise it. Obviously if that includes Britain then I take a great offense and even if it doesn't, and despite my anti-EU position, I don't think there is much ground for a lot of it.
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.....and aren't you a cast out according to the French in history? Hell, soon after WWII, France was quite clear about where Britian stood in accordance to "Europe." You think this has changed? The English speaking nations (outsiders) flipped the coin on the Nazis in western Europe. The English speaking nations bore the burden against communism. And today, the strongest of allies continue to be the English speaking nations.

You asked if my attitude extends to Britian. I see Britian as seperate from Europe. Physically and mentally removed from the continent. Even british colonies were far more humane than what the rest displayed, which may be a reason Britian's former colonies are among the strongest today.

And there's plenty of ground. I tire of the constant exaggerated criticism. I tire of the demand for American help with little to no reciprocation. I tire of belonging to a nation that is expected to place others before itself by those who have placed themselves first for centuries. I definately find great irony and hypocricy in an individual who hails from a region that perfected mass displacement, torture, genocide, and global disaster. And if you think this is mere history (as Pete likes to pretend), national policies of open torture from France existed merely 55 years ago and genocide was occuring in the 1990s.

What has really changed from those who claim to be our moral superiority? America's last "genocide" could be argued over the Native Americans centuries ago, despite the European exaggerated cry to declare genocide orchestration by America in Iraq today. And slavery? Americans conducted its own civil war to free the slaves 150 years ago and a century later Americans marched for overdue equal civil rights. And right before these civil rights marches, outsiders had to enter Europe to stop genocide and slavery. and just over a decade ago, outsiders once again entered Europe to stop genocide. Seems to me that our "moral superiors" have had to have a lot of outsider help (convincing) to do what is right on their own land where as Americans have always faced issues and handled them on our own.

Europeans are the last group of people to think themselves worthy to call themselves anybody's "moral superior."
 
PeteEU said:
So yes as it stands now in this time in history, Europe has a far cleaner record (not perfect, far from it) on torture than the US. If we go back in time, then no, but then again human history regardless of nation or ethnic group has used torture since the dawn of time...
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Oh no..no..no. You don't get off this easy. You have found great delight in dragging America through the mud for a handful of cases involving waterboarding. Somehow, the fact that hundreds of thousands were tortured openly and as a matter of national French policy in the 20th century gets to be washed away as you paint America as today's evil over a "handful" of cases.

Your false stage of pretending that you are some grand humanitarian who is merely focusing on the "deed" of the day is transparent. You criticize because you have opportunity. And you criticize only because it is America. A handful of cases in any other nation wouldn't be enough to even raise your eyebrow. But America? The hunger must be great.
 
PeteEU said:
Talk about rewriting history to fit your world view... gezzz.
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Yeah...I am well aware that Europeans like to sprinkle sugar on history to maintain their seat at the table.
 
GySgt said:
.....and aren't you a cast out according to the French in history? Hell, soon after WWII, France was quite clear about where Britian stood in accordance to "Europe." You think this has changed? [
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It is a shame it has changed. Unfortunately the French allowed Heath to take us into the bloody EUroplot.


And there's plenty of ground. I tire of the constant exaggerated criticism. I tire of the demand for American help with little to no reciprocation. I tire of belonging to a nation that is expected to place others before itself by those who have placed themselves first for centuries. I definately find great irony and hypocricy in an individual who hails from a region that perfected mass displacement, torture, genocide, and global disaster. And if you think this is mere history (as Pete likes to pretend), national policies of open torture from France existed merely 55 years ago and genocide was occuring in the 1990s.

What has really changed from those who claim to be our moral superiority? America's last "genocide" could be argued over the Native Americans centuries ago, despite the European exaggerated cry to declare genocide orchestration by America in Iraq today. And slavery? Americans conducted its own civil war to free the slaves 150 years ago and a century later Americans marched for overdue equal civil rights. And right before these civil rights marches, outsiders had to enter Europe to stop genocide and slavery. and just over a decade ago, outsiders once again entered Europe to stop genocide. Seems to me that our "moral superiors" have had to have a lot of outsider help (convincing) to do what is right on their own land where as Americans have always faced issues and handled them on our own.

Europeans are the last group of people to think themselves worthy to call themselves anybody's "moral superior."[/QUOTE]I agree with you about some of the silly things that people like Pete say but then it is silly to retaliate by despising Europe. Contintental Europe has had its problems but it is still a wonderful and beautiful place.

Europe is not superior to America nor is America superior to Europe.
 
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