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Thread: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    If I took the time to post historical examples of torture working and providing needed intel, then how would you change your argument? Perhaps you wouldn't be an absolutist on the issue?
    The "mushroom cloud" fear-based reasoning doesn't fly. Part of dubya's "evidence" to invade Iraq was false confessions brought on by torture. Can you excuse over a million dead based on that false confession? Do those kind of odds bother your sleep, even a wink?
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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I Part of dubya's "evidence" to invade Iraq was false confessions brought on by torture.
    this has nothing to do with your claim that "torture never works".

    I mentioned nothing of GB or Iraq. This is a textbook example of a strawman.

    Can you excuse over a million dead based on that false confession?
    This has nothing to do with your claim that torture never works.

    I mentioned nothing of Iraq or reasons for the war. This is another example of a strawman.

    Do those kind of odds bother your sleep, even a wink?
    this too has nothing to do with your absolutist claim that "torture never works".

    I asked a simple question: if I can show historical evidence where consequential intel was extracted using torture then would that change your mind that torture "never works"?

    You don't have to agree with torture or the iraq war or George Bush. So please, don't try those strawmen again.
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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    this has nothing to do with your claim that "torture never works".

    I mentioned nothing of GB or Iraq.
    Yeah, I noticed.

    "24" just went off the air. Maybe you should DVR it. While I love the series, I have a news flash fer ya. Jack Bauer is not real. There are no ticking nuclear bombs or terrorists with uzis ready to attack the White House that would warrant gauging someone's eyes out for info.

    My nephew is in Iraq right now. Because of that spoiled rich cheerleader traitorist illegally ordering innocent prisoners to be tortured, my family now has to worry that, if my nephew is captured, he will be tortured in kind. And we, as a country, will not be able to object on moral grounds... anymore!

    I'm no 60's peace nik but, I know the numbers don't jive. I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!

    You've swallowed dubya's load of fear hook, line and sinker! This country has survived, thrived for over 200 years by choosing to take the higher ground. After capturing over 1,000 Hessians, in the Battle of Trenton, General George Washington ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting.

    In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

    John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement.
    Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."

    You'll forgive my judgement when I tell you I would follow Washington, and Adams, in a moral argument welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll before I gave "Don Bush" and his thugs even an audience.
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    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  4. #44
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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Yeah, I noticed.
    Proud of dishonesty?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    While I love the series, I have a news flash fer ya. Jack Bauer is not real. There are no ticking nuclear bombs or terrorists with uzis ready to attack the White House that would warrant gauging someone's eyes out for info.
    Strawman.

    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Because of that spoiled rich cheerleader traitorist illegally ordering innocent prisoners to be tortured, my family now has to worry that, if my nephew is captured, he will be tortured in kind. And we, as a country, will not be able to object on moral grounds... anymore!
    They would torture and rape your nephew whether we tortured or not. Don't be so naive as to think that torture is merely reciprocation.

    Specious argument: specious - Wiktionary

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!
    Perhaps you did not understand my question?

    Otherwise you wouldn't make another strawman. Please take your time and read my question.

    I asked a simple question: if I can show historical evidence where consequential intel was extracted using torture then would that change your mind that torture "never works"?

    You don't have to agree with torture or the Iraq war or George Bush. So please, don't try those strawmen again
    .

    Notice how I don't presume that torture works 50% of the time, or 10% of the time or 90%. Just that it has worked in the past. Has the subtle difference sunk in yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    You've swallowed dubya's load of fear hook, line and sinker! This country has survived, thrived for over 200 years by choosing to take the higher ground. After capturing over 1,000 Hessians, in the Battle of Trenton, General George Washington ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting.
    Strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
    Irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement.
    Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
    Irrelevant again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    You'll forgive my judgement when I tell you I would follow Washington, and Adams, in a moral argument welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll before I gave "Don Bush" and his thugs even an audience.
    Red-herring. Red herring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Want to try again?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Simple two wrongs doesn't make one right and UK have been USA greatest supporter in the "war on terror". Also because UK have done a miniature version of USA:s torture by allied dictator program doesn't mean that USA allied torture by allied dictator or the direct action of US officials is ok. That at the same time UK of course should be critized for their actions.

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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I know torture is not dependable. No matter how many examples you can give me where it worked, a hundred or a thousand could be offered where it did not! Where innocent men, women and yes children were tortured! THAT is not acceptable!!!
    It works just fine.
    Just because you shoot and don't always score doesn't mean you should never shoot, especially when lives on our side can be spared.

    TheHill.com - When waterboarding works
    Kiriakou told his story to ABC News’s Brian Ross, and the network posted the full, unedited text of the interview on its website.

    Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan in 2002. Shot three times before being caught, his life was saved by U.S. doctors. When he recovered, Kiriakou was among the first to speak to him.

    Zubaydah was talkative, but he gave the CIA no usable intelligence.

    CIA interrogators tried a variety of techniques of escalating severity on Zubaydah. Each one had to be specifically authorized in advance at the highest levels of the CIA.

    Still, Zubaydah resisted. Finally the interrogation worked its way up to waterboarding.

    “Was it used on Zubaydah?” Ross asked Kiriakou.

    “It was.”

    “And was it successful?”

    “It was.”

    After the waterboarding session, Zubaydah was a different man. “He told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night,” Kiriakou said, “and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured.”
    U.S. interrogators, fearing another major attack — remember, this was just months after 9/11 — worked fast. According to Kiriakou, Zubaydah provided information that helped stop a number of al Qaeda actions.

    “So in your view the waterboarding broke him?” Ross asked.

    “I think it did, yes.”

    “And did it make a difference?”

    “It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”

    “No doubt about that? That’s not some hype?”

    “No doubt.”
    Last edited by zimmer; 02-24-09 at 08:49 AM.
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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Look mate I'm not one of them but you do talk a lot of bollocks about Europe and you do seem to despise it. Obviously if that includes Britain then I take a great offense and even if it doesn't, and despite my anti-EU position, I don't think there is much ground for a lot of it.

    .....and aren't you a cast out according to the French in history? Hell, soon after WWII, France was quite clear about where Britian stood in accordance to "Europe." You think this has changed? The English speaking nations (outsiders) flipped the coin on the Nazis in western Europe. The English speaking nations bore the burden against communism. And today, the strongest of allies continue to be the English speaking nations.

    You asked if my attitude extends to Britian. I see Britian as seperate from Europe. Physically and mentally removed from the continent. Even british colonies were far more humane than what the rest displayed, which may be a reason Britian's former colonies are among the strongest today.

    And there's plenty of ground. I tire of the constant exaggerated criticism. I tire of the demand for American help with little to no reciprocation. I tire of belonging to a nation that is expected to place others before itself by those who have placed themselves first for centuries. I definately find great irony and hypocricy in an individual who hails from a region that perfected mass displacement, torture, genocide, and global disaster. And if you think this is mere history (as Pete likes to pretend), national policies of open torture from France existed merely 55 years ago and genocide was occuring in the 1990s.

    What has really changed from those who claim to be our moral superiority? America's last "genocide" could be argued over the Native Americans centuries ago, despite the European exaggerated cry to declare genocide orchestration by America in Iraq today. And slavery? Americans conducted its own civil war to free the slaves 150 years ago and a century later Americans marched for overdue equal civil rights. And right before these civil rights marches, outsiders had to enter Europe to stop genocide and slavery. and just over a decade ago, outsiders once again entered Europe to stop genocide. Seems to me that our "moral superiors" have had to have a lot of outsider help (convincing) to do what is right on their own land where as Americans have always faced issues and handled them on our own.

    Europeans are the last group of people to think themselves worthy to call themselves anybody's "moral superior."

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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So yes as it stands now in this time in history, Europe has a far cleaner record (not perfect, far from it) on torture than the US. If we go back in time, then no, but then again human history regardless of nation or ethnic group has used torture since the dawn of time...

    Oh no..no..no. You don't get off this easy. You have found great delight in dragging America through the mud for a handful of cases involving waterboarding. Somehow, the fact that hundreds of thousands were tortured openly and as a matter of national French policy in the 20th century gets to be washed away as you paint America as today's evil over a "handful" of cases.

    Your false stage of pretending that you are some grand humanitarian who is merely focusing on the "deed" of the day is transparent. You criticize because you have opportunity. And you criticize only because it is America. A handful of cases in any other nation wouldn't be enough to even raise your eyebrow. But America? The hunger must be great.

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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Talk about rewriting history to fit your world view... gezzz.
    Yeah...I am well aware that Europeans like to sprinkle sugar on history to maintain their seat at the table.

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    Re: UK agents 'colluded with torture in Pakistan'

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    .....and aren't you a cast out according to the French in history? Hell, soon after WWII, France was quite clear about where Britian stood in accordance to "Europe." You think this has changed? [
    It is a shame it has changed. Unfortunately the French allowed Heath to take us into the bloody EUroplot.


    And there's plenty of ground. I tire of the constant exaggerated criticism. I tire of the demand for American help with little to no reciprocation. I tire of belonging to a nation that is expected to place others before itself by those who have placed themselves first for centuries. I definately find great irony and hypocricy in an individual who hails from a region that perfected mass displacement, torture, genocide, and global disaster. And if you think this is mere history (as Pete likes to pretend), national policies of open torture from France existed merely 55 years ago and genocide was occuring in the 1990s.

    What has really changed from those who claim to be our moral superiority? America's last "genocide" could be argued over the Native Americans centuries ago, despite the European exaggerated cry to declare genocide orchestration by America in Iraq today. And slavery? Americans conducted its own civil war to free the slaves 150 years ago and a century later Americans marched for overdue equal civil rights. And right before these civil rights marches, outsiders had to enter Europe to stop genocide and slavery. and just over a decade ago, outsiders once again entered Europe to stop genocide. Seems to me that our "moral superiors" have had to have a lot of outsider help (convincing) to do what is right on their own land where as Americans have always faced issues and handled them on our own.

    Europeans are the last group of people to think themselves worthy to call themselves anybody's "moral superior."[/QUOTE]I agree with you about some of the silly things that people like Pete say but then it is silly to retaliate by despising Europe. Contintental Europe has had its problems but it is still a wonderful and beautiful place.

    Europe is not superior to America nor is America superior to Europe.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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