"Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke
But while all of this was going on, NATO was a feast in which Americans provided. An organization that was more about Europe than the "North Atlantic" and never used. Post Cold War, the Middle East would see a Gulf War inwhich Americans would lead the vast majority of the missions. Later, Bosnia/Kosovo would see an American led crusade against the genocide of Muslims and others on European soil, in which America would conduct the vast majority of the missions. And finally, Afghanistan earns a re-visit from America in 2001, for which our "allies" again support us by sending the bare minimum and complaining about having to send more years after that.
What is concluded is that while America was busy running around the world defacing our own values at times for the sake of all of us, Europe was afforded time to look inward and to re-build. With the lack of showing for Bosnia/Kosovo and Afghanistan we can conclude that 20 years after the Cold War ended, America is still expected to bear the burden so others can benefit internally. We are supposed to be criticized for our military culture, yet expected to maintain it at the expense of social programs and such. And we are expected to do this because we have allowed our "allies" to get away with the bare minimum of support while focusing on their social programs and such. And any hint of "Buy America" as was recently mentioned by President Obama's plan, is seen as some sort of blasphemy or selfish behavior by those "allies" who had spent decades doing exactly this under our umbrella.
This is the truth of our reality. People have a habit of prettying this up, but this only ensures that America remain the work horse for everyone else instead of focusing on our yard as they have been afforded to do.
Last edited by MSgt; 02-22-09 at 06:14 PM.
So now you are going back in history to find instances where European countries have used torture? Is that all you got? We are talking about geo politics of today, not 50 years ago.Hmmmmm....hundreds of thousands? Yet, a few possible cases in GITMO and frat party behavior in Abu Graib is supposed to be the example of tyranny and evil? Some allegedlies and a just the hint of torture by American personel and Europe casts stones and builds a pulpit? You people exist just to pull America down to your levels. But we are supposed to label you as our "moral superiority?"
The French in Algiers, the Belgians in Somalia, Germans in Germany, today's secret prisons in Europe......your "superiority" is false and it is typical of Europeans to exaggerate the issues of America in an attempt to forgive your own behaviors. With hundreds of thousands freely tortured in Algeria by the French.....you people, especially the pathetic French, find the nerve to complain about a possible handful of individuals that may or may not have been tortured depending on whose defintion?
"As far as you know"......what a joke. You do know. You choose to lie about it and drag America through the mud you create. It's the same old European attitude. In your quest to deny the house that your kind exist in, you choose to exaggerate the few rusty nails in America to feel better about yourselves and to project the same old typical anti-Americanism. From colonizing the world, dividing tribes, forcing tribes to live together, starting two world wars, hosting the Cold War, a continued love affair for dictators, and vast genocides and torture along the way......you stand and pretend that a few recent stumbled American cases now vindicate you and that we must answer to the like of you? Didn't Spain just evolve out of a dictatorship? I wonder how many of your countrymen were tortured and executed by your own countrymen.
You talk of differences. The difference is that we judge ourselves and demand better. The American military has always been subjected to the Geneva Convention. America is an original signatory. It takes outside sources to stop genocide inside Europe, not once, but again fifty years later in Bosnia. And none of you demand better of your own...even as hundreds of thousands of Muslims are tortured systematically and as a matter of policy. But today you accuse America of conducting a genocide upon Muslims or conducting a war against Islam, despite the obvious truths right in everybody's faces.
And today you people criticize secret prisons in Europe even as your government's deny them. "As far as you know" is a joke at best.
What the French did in Algeria is disgusting, just as is what the US did in Vietnam and what the Germans did during WW2. What does that have to do with the world today? Do you know if the French still officially support the use of torture as they did then? When was it the last time we heard of a detainee complaining over being tortured in a French prison?
As for Belgium in Somalia. That at least is closer in history to anything else you got even though it is almost 20 years old. Here we have a single unit as far as I know that abused its detainees. Unless I am mistaken it was not on orders by the political leaders.... another big difference between the case and what the US did under Bush.
And Germany.. what are you babling about? That Germany in the 1970s may or may not have tortured RAF people? 30 years ago? Or do you have some evidence that the German government has "secret prisons" where it tortures in Germany? Why is it you have to go back 20+ years to find your evidence?
And why did you leave out the Brits and what it did in Northern Ireland? Funny you "forgot to mention that".
I am no way in denial that our governments may or may not be abusing prisoners in the war on terror. I aint that naive. I dont trust our own government further than I can throw them and that is the ones I voted for.
But we have no evidence what so ever that they are at this moment in time. The only evidence we do have is what was presented in the original article, and even here the British did not use torture. That is why I say "as far as we know". It is no cop-out, no excuse, but reality.
We however have plenty of evidence that the US used torture on its "enemy combatants" and exported suspects to 3rd countries that tortured them for the US... totaly with the knowledge of the US. We have Abu Graib, Bagram and of course Gitmo, plus the "secret" prisons around the world. We have pictures. We have documentation that greenlights "harsh techniques" while justifying the use of said techniques and making them seem legal when they are not. We have Bush administration officials admitting that it happened. And yet the right in the US is still in denial and refusing to believe that the US used torture.
If anything it is you and your right wing friends that are in denial of the truth. Water boarding is torture. Sending people to Syria and Egypt means they will be tortured (which is ironic since the US refuses to send a known terrorist to Valenzuela because they fear he will be tortured..)
So yes as it stands now in this time in history, Europe has a far cleaner record (not perfect, far from it) on torture than the US. If we go back in time, then no, but then again human history regardless of nation or ethnic group has used torture since the dawn of time...
So no I am not in denial nor brainwashed to believe that we European's are better (or worse) on the issue of torture, but as it stands now there is no evidence of any form of official policy by any European government (minus the eastern block) in the use of torture on anyone. And this is the difference between Europe and the US.. the evidence against the Bush administration is there even though you refuse to believe or accept it, the evidence against European countries is next to non existent.
They should force 'em to listen to Boy George.
It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.
If any nation is in conflict with another nation, then GC is usually enforced.
However when any Nation is fighting an unidentifiable Terrorist Organization, and they happen to capture one of these guys, they will do what it takes to get information from them.
Israel has and will continue to torture, UK tortures, France tortures, USA tortures.
Any nation that feels it is being attacked by a non National force will upon capturing someone from that force, torture them to gain information.
Let he who is without sin cast first stone.
Should it be condoned?
Should Terrorism be condoned?
Instead of getting all high and mighty, look at the realism of what Terrorism means to your own Nation.
I hope all them UK Agents are fired, stripped of their position, their superiors jailed. Them jailed. If this goes higher into the Government, then i would want them infront of EuCofHR
There is no moral equivalent between us torturing them and us giving someone for others to torture them
Anyway - from the linked article -The difference is that the allegations are being investigated, not brushed under a carpet or debated to see if "waterboarding is torture or not".It has also emerged that New York-based HRW detailed its concerns in a letter to the UK government last October but has yet to receive a response.
The letter arrived at the same time that the Attorney General was tasked with deciding if Scotland Yard should begin a criminal investigation into British security agents' treatment of Binyam Mohamed. Crown prosecutors are currently weighing up the evidence.
Britain's former chief legal adviser, Lord Goldsmith, said that the Foreign Office would want to examine any British involvement in torture allegations very carefully and, if necessary, bring individuals "to book" to ensure such behaviour was "eradicated".
What gets me however is that British agents colluding with Pakistani torturers brings the anti-europeans out like a rash - while british agents or airports colluding to allow US rendition flights passed through this forum as quickly as a bad dose of typhoid ridden food through somone's gut.