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Thread: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Most Americans come from lazy ignorance and choose to remain ignorant. This is why the media is supposed to supply them their clarity. Why a politician is supposed to make them understand what a book would have already done and they get angry when the politician doesn't deliver. Why Americans are "aghast" at the prospect that the leader of the free world may need a bit of discretion and secrecy to conduct his affiars for their well being.
    If this stuff is done in secret, how are Americans supposed to learn about it?
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I understand your explanation. But it seems to me that it boils down to we can't afford to hold them accountable.
    Errrrr, scratch that. I read another article that clarified. This isn't about the 14 million emails that they've found, it's about whether there are supposedly any more that are missing.

    Basically, they went back and searched for all the emails that had gone missing and found all of these. Now, these groups are trying to force the government to spend millions more searching for and restoring additional emails that they don't even know are missing. The government is opposed to that, arguing that it expended a more than reasonable effort and found pretty much everything it could be reasonably be expected to find.

    This same argument occurs in pretty much every major lawsuit between corporations. Usually, the party seeking to force the other party to do more discovery needs to show that there are actually important things that will be found and that the cost is not excessive. It sounds like neither of those has been shown here.
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Errrrr, scratch that. I read another article that clarified. This isn't about the 14 million emails that they've found, it's about whether there are supposedly any more that are missing.

    Basically, they went back and searched for all the emails that had gone missing and found all of these. Now, these groups are trying to force the government to spend millions more searching for and restoring additional emails that they don't even know are missing. The government is opposed to that, arguing that it expended a more than reasonable effort and found pretty much everything it could be reasonably be expected to find.

    This same argument occurs in pretty much every major lawsuit between corporations. Usually, the party seeking to force the other party to do more discovery needs to show that there are actually important things that will be found and that the cost is not excessive. It sounds like neither of those has been shown here.
    I can understand this. No matter how much money we spend we'll never find the missing 18 minutes of tape.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    If this stuff is done in secret, how are Americans supposed to learn about it?
    Because the media always weasels a story or two, which gathers steam via the individual citizien who "has a right to know." And then the politicians take over and fight for the individual citizen's "rights" whenever an opposing politician can be dragged about over it.

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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Because the media always weasels a story or two, which gathers steam via the individual citizien who "has a right to know." And then the politicians take over and fight for the individual citizen's "rights" whenever an opposing politician can be dragged about over it.
    How does the media obtain this secret information?

    Is "weaseling" more effective than torture?

    This is being black and white by demonizing the media. Government leaks have been around as long as the media.

    It seems on one hand you want people to recognize the reality of the world, but on the other hand you resent sunlight being shown on that reality because it's not popular with the public.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    How does the media obtain this secret information?
    Politicians selling each other out and the media looking to turn a buck.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    This is being black and white by demonizing the media. Government leaks have been around as long as the media.

    It seems on one hand you want people to recognize the reality of the world, but on the other hand you resent sunlight being shown on that reality because it's not popular with the public.
    The military detests the media. But my point is that Americans should stop acting as if they are holier than thou everytime they discover exactly what it takes to provide for their pampered buttery asses.

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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Politicians selling each other out and the media looking to turn a buck.
    But they gain secret information without torturing anyone right?

    I didn't ask what the media's motive is. That's a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    The military detests the media. But my point is that Americans should stop acting as if they are holier than thou everytime they discover exactly what it takes to provide for their pampered buttery asses.
    The people don't blindly accept that torture is "exactly what it takes". Just because we use that method doesn't mean that it is necessary.

    The military doesn't like the media. The military doesn't like to be second guessed about things. I understand why. The military wouldn't operate effectively if they allowed constant rampant second guessing. But just as you claim that torture is a necessary evil, so is the media. The people have a right to to despise torture. Call it blowback from a lifetime of rhetoric. It has been ingrained in our brains that there is no honor in torture. Civilians have a different perception than those in the military do.

    Many people aren't convinced that the only way to achieve the ends of safety is through torture. You have admitted yourself that it has always been done. So how would we know if not torturing would work?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    But they gain secret information without torturing anyone right?
    Didn't realize you were wanting to specifically touch on "torture." All of our intel comes from double agents, local inhabitants, and interrogations. Any case of "torture" is usually exaggerated and interpreted as such by people who know no better. How many cases of torture have their actually been? A whole lot of heresay, speculation, and prisoner complaints pretty much sums the whole affair up. But none of this mattered to the politician seeking a vote or the media seeking a buck. The very few reported incidences were just that...."very few."

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Just because we use that method doesn't mean that it is necessary.
    Say's who? Ever been in a situation where information was timely vital?


    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Civilians have a different perception than those in the military do.
    Which is why it is the military's job to stand between the ugly world and the hapless American civilian.


    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Many people aren't convinced that the only way to achieve the ends of safety is through torture.
    And why would they be? Nobody's ever made this argument. This is that exaggerated issue making that builds an unnecessary stage for which our critics are fed ammo. This is exactly the type of hinting and speculating that everyone uses to create larger issues and make the effort that much more difficult.

    Do you know the which is the one nation that an individual can be captured by in war and be provided guaranteed special dietary meals, a religious text, and a global over sight seeking to free you at all costs? America. Prisoner treatment isn't a general issue for us. Never has been.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-22-09 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Didn't realize you were wanting to specifically touch on "torture." All of our intel comes from double agents, local inhabitants, and interrogations. Any case of "torture" is usually exaggerated and interpreted as such by people who know no better. How many cases of torture have their actually been? A whole lot of heresay, speculation, and prisoner complaints pretty much sums the whole affair up. But none of this mattered to the politician seeking a vote or the media seeking a buck. The very few reported incidences were just that...."very few."
    Sorry, when you brought up the ugly world I assumed that was what you were talking about. I apologize if I was wrong.

    Well, waterboarding has only happened three times that we know of. Who knows what we don't know about? I don't think the naked pyramids at Abu Ghraib was honorable action. I certainly don't see that as some rogue fraternity house prank or a determined effort to aquire time sensitive information.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Say's who? Ever been in a situation where information was timely vital?
    No, I haven't. How do you know if someone has time sensitive information? How do you know who to torture?


    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Which is why it is the military's job to stand between the ugly world and the hapless American civilian.
    As much as the military resents the fact that civilians question the methods the military provide our freedom and security, civilians resent the cavalier attitude of "how dare you question us" that they get as if the military was infallible.


    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    And why would they be? Nobody's ever made this argument. This is that exaggerated issue making that builds an unnecessary stage for which our critics are fed ammo. This is exactly the type of hinting and speculating that everyone uses to create larger issues and make the effort that much more difficult.
    You will always have hinting and speculation in a free society when there is secrecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Do you know the which is the one nation that an individual can be captured by in war and be provided guaranteed special dietary meals, a religious text, and a global over sight seeking to free you at all costs? America. Prisoner treatment isn't a general issue for us. Never has been.
    Abu Ghraib.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  10. #30
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    Re: Obama administration tries to kill e-mail case

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    i think I remember this being a huge issue when Bush was about this. What happened to the outrage?
    It's still there. Read my post.
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