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Thread: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

  1. #131
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    If this is the case then you could have provided a little more insight as to where exactly anything said was incorrect instead of wasting yet another post on worthless libel and trolling.

    But we both know you're not interested in such a thing.
    Don't mind his one line zingers. It seems to be his only way of contributing.

  2. #132
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The gesture was from the emperor to the USSR, which was a member of the Allied coalition.



    I never claimed he did. As has already been stated, this was being relayed through Togo from the Emperor.



    Again, why you are stating these obvious facts is beyond me, as I am not disagreeing with them but in fact am acknowledging them.



    Again, you're repeating what I've already stated and acknowledged. I have never argued that unconditional surrender was an option. Moreover, I'm confused as to why you're even quoting this, as you yourself earlier stated that Togo wasn't in charge. What Togo actually thought is irrelevant.



    I'm not sure what you're saying here, due to the poor wording of these sentences. How did you not know they were fussing so much about unconditional surrender? I've been saying in all of my posts that they would not accept it.

    How would the US have known what? That the Japanese were willing to negotiate the terms of surrender? Why would you even think they wouldn't know?



    You have no possible way of substantiating this at all. What we do know for a fact, though, is that the bombings ended hundreds of thousands of lives.



    Except surrender, which is what we are discussing.



    Why should I care if you change your views? It is of no importance to me whether or not you agree with me. I am interested in the development of my views; if you were actually offering up intelligent, productive debate then I would be more than happy to continue this discussion.

    However, it is clear by the tone of your posts, by your purposeful distortion and ignorance of what I have said and in the end making such a ridiculous claim as to how the US would know proves to me that you have no interest whatsoever in any form of productive discussion.

    If you want to have one, then by all means make a post supporting your argument that doesn't include such distortions or ridiculous inquiries. I will be more than happy to respond. But until then if you want me to educate you then pay me; otherwise, go read about it yourself.

    Lol... are you kidding? I'm probably one of the only ones who would have a productive discussion with you. I never asked you to "educated me", your arrogance is just annoying, try to be more subtle about it. I implied I wanted a good discussion and was willing to hear your point of view, you've proven to me that you can't do that.

    General Marshall estimated it would cost at least 500,000 American lives in the event of an invasion of mainland Japan... other estimates range much higher. Both atom bombs combined do not reach that figure. Therefore, Truman saved lives by dropping the bombs.

    The diary was from Tojo, War Prime Minister of Japan during WWII, not Togo. Wow, let me reiterate that the Emperor was not in charge. The Emperor is a figurehead in Japanese society, the only reason he had the power to decide Japan's fate was because the Supreme War Council could not. If the atom bombs had not been dropped, the Supreme War Council would be less divided... the decision would not have gone to the Emperor. I hope I don't have to spell this out for you.

    Why wouldn't the United States assume Japan wasn't surrendering? I don't know, maybe because honor is put above all else in Japanese society and the worse sham on a person's honor is defeat, especially a military defeat. And because they had made no gestures of that sort that President Truman or his cabinet were aware of, maybe that's why. No, no way, President Truman is evil like every American is, right?

    Let me say what I said before a little more clearly: Your a typical communist. Your outlook on life and view on history is closed to discussion, you have decided that you are right and everything that has happened in the past is in line with your ideaology, no exceptions. It's clear-cut: 1- Enemies of the Soviet Union are evil in everything they do 2- The Soviet Union and its communist allies were not wrong in anything they did. You are all smug, your so sure that your right and everyone else is wrong... in other words, your close-minded, arrogant, bigots. I'm done talking to you unless you have something substantial to say besides saying that you already acknowledged everything I said(what a joke ) and I should educate myself.

  3. #133
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Let me say what I said before a little more clearly: Your a typical communist. Your outlook on life and view on history is closed to discussion, you have decided that you are right and everything that has happened in the past is in line with your ideaology, no exceptions. It's clear-cut: 1- Enemies of the Soviet Union are evil in everything they do 2- The Soviet Union and its communist allies were not wrong in anything they did. You are all smug, your so sure that your right and everyone else is wrong... in other words, your close-minded, arrogant, bigots. I'm done talking to you unless you have something substantial to say besides saying that you already acknowledged everything I said(what a joke ) and I should educate myself.
    Talk about close-minded, arrogant bigotry!

  4. #134
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    If this is the case then you could have provided a little more insight as to where exactly anything said was incorrect instead of wasting yet another post on worthless libel and trolling.

    But we both know you're not interested in such a thing.
    You continously portray the US as needlessly/recklessly dropping the bomb which resulted in thousands of deaths. Perhaps this isn't your intent, in which case your presentation skillls need some fine tuning, but its exactly what I and Tubub hear from your arguments. Its clearly been shown that the Japanese were unwilling to submit to unconditional surrender (the only option the US would allow for obvious reasons) despite the many chances given to them and the clear warnings the US had given them prior to the first bombing and the three days between the first and second bombing.

    Your tone and consistant exaggeration of the willingness of the Japanese to surrender begs the question as to whether the US had a better option to pursue based on the responses from Japan and the intel available to the US. This is grossly false and a clear indication of your revisionist attempts as its a hindsight interpretation that even today is not supported by the facts. Thus, such a patently false analysis of the events and decisions made brands you as wrong or contemptiously biased. I would hope its the former.

    Let me make it straightforward and simple: based on the responses received from Japan and the knowledge available to the US at the time, was it the best option for the US to drop the bomb to entice a unconditional surrender? (Please leave hindsight bias at home)

    I say "yes". You apparently would say "no".
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  5. #135
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Your tone and consistant exaggeration of the willingness of the Japanese to surrender begs the question as to whether the US had a better option to pursue based on the responses from Japan and the intel available to the US. This is grossly false and a clear indication of your revisionist attempts as its a hindsight interpretation that even today is not supported by the facts. Thus, such a patently false analysis of the events and decisions made brands you as wrong or contemptiously biased. I would hope its the former.

    Let me make it straightforward and simple: based on the responses received from Japan and the knowledge available to the US at the time, was it the best option for the US to drop the bomb to entice a unconditional surrender? (Please leave hindsight bias at home)

    I say "yes". You apparently would say "no".
    Your assertion is correct. The Japanese were willing to negotiate a surrender on the grounds that they could retain the emperor; the US was not interested in anything other than unconditional surrender, and did not even attempt to open up negotiations on the subject.

    As far as I thought this was common knowledge; apparently I am mistaken, in that both of you don't believe it.

    Chicago Tribune, August 19,1945

    JAPS ASKED PEACE IN JAN. ENVOYS ON WAY -- TOKYO

    Roosevelt Ignored M'Arthur Report On Nip Proposals

    By Walter Trohan

    Release of all censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to report that the first Japanese peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.

    Two days before the late President Roosevelt left the last week in January for the Yalta conference with Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stalin he received a Japanese offer identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, Harry S. Truman.

    MacArthur Relayed Message to F.D.

    The Jap offer, based on five separate overtures, was relayed to the White House by Gen. MacArthur in a 40-page communication. The American commander, who had just returned triumphantly to Bataan, urged negotiations on the basis of the Jap overtures.

    The offer, as relayed by MacArthur, contemplated abject surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. The suggestion was advanced from the Japanese quarters making the offer that the Emperor become a puppet in the hands of American forces.

    Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito.

    General's Communication Dismissed

    President Roosevelt dismissed the general's communication, which was studded with solemn references to the deity, after a casual reading with the remark, "MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician."

    The MacArthur report was not even taken to Yalta. However, it was carefully preserved in the files of the high command and subsequently became the basis of the Truman-Attlee Potsdam declaration calling for surrender of Japan.

    This Jap peace bid was known to the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald shortly after the MacArthur comunication reached here. It was not published under the paper’s established policy of complete co-operation with the voluntary censorship code.


    FULL STORY
    And in case you don't believe this article is valid (as the IHR is a noted revisionist organization), here it is in the archives of the Chicago Tribune.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 03-16-09 at 02:07 PM.

  6. #136
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Your assertion is correct. The Japanese were willing to negotiate a surrender on the grounds that they could retain the emperor; the US was not interested in anything other than unconditional surrender, and did not even attempt to open up negotiations on the subject.
    and what is wrong with the US demands?

    The US was in the power position, it does not have to acquiesce to the demands of the Japanese. The US would not condone the retention of the emperor. Such a request was an attempt by the Japenese leadership to continue their influence and maintain their hold on power.

    No matter the reason the Japenese wanted to maintain the emperor, it matters not. The US offered fair and equitable terms of surrender. This was another example of the Japenese failing to come to terms with defeat.

    Beggars can't be choosers.

    As far as I thought this was common knowledge; apparently I am mistaken, in that both of you don't believe it.



    And in case you don't believe this article is valid (as the IHR is a noted revisionist organization), here it is in the archives of the Chicago Tribune.
    In many wars the terms of surrender are put forward. However, the surrenderer doesn't get to decide his terms. Perhaps you've forgotten that?

    Beggers can't be choosers.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  7. #137
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    This entire argument was about whether surrender was viable as an alternative to either the dropping of the atomic bombs or a costly invasion. I have shown this to be so, and now your only recourse is to respond by basically saying "so what?"

    Your post is essentially a concession that surrender was a viable option to be explored that the US opted not to, choosing instead to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in one of the most horrific events in recent history.

    You are now defending such a horrific action, to which I don't even need to respond, as what I stated to Scarecrow earlier applies to you as well:

    The fact is that you consider it acceptable to kill civilians in such an instance, to which I don't even need to respond. Your statement says pretty much everything about you that needs to be said.

  8. #138
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito.
    This is a bit fuzzy and begs two questions.

    1) Who exactly were these “responsible Japanese” envoys? ie...What positions of power (if any) did they hold within the Japanese government?

    2) Why did the Emperor himself not directly dispatch to the Allies an exemplar surrender document signed and sealed by His Majesty? Why all the circumlocution?

  9. #139
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    2) Why did the Emperor himself not directly dispatch to the Allies an exemplar surrender document signed and sealed by His Majesty? Why all the circumlocution?
    From an earlier post:

    On 12 July--the day after advising Ambassador Sato [sic] of Japan's desire to "make use of Russia in ending the war"--Foreign Minister Togo dispatched the following additional message on the subject, labelled "very urgent":

    ...

    "His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland. His majesty is deeply reluctant to have any further blood lost among the people on both sides, and it is his desire for the welfare of all humanity to restore peace with all possible speed.

    "The emperor's will, as expressed above, arises not only from his benevolence toward his own subjects but from his concern for the welfare of humanity in general. It is the Emperor's private intention to send Prince Konoye to Moscow as a Special Envoy with a letter from him containing the statements given above. Please inform Molotov of this and get the Russians' consent to having the party enter the country...

    "Magic"-Diplomatic Summary - 13 July 1945
    Ultra Top Secret - Declassified 7/20/05
    Also, I'm currently too lazy to further transcribe from the .PDF file, but if you go to page 4, note 2 (pretty much the whole page), it is explained that Sato did not receive the relay prior to his meeting with Molotov.

    It should also be noted that the date of this document is July 13, 1945.

    Moreover, my concern is not regarding what the Japanese leadership should or should not have done, but that surrender was a viable option to be explored by the Allied powers, and that the allies were fully aware of this.

  10. #140
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    On 12 July--the day after advising Ambassador Sato [sic] of Japan's desire to "make use of Russia in ending the war"--Foreign Minister Togo dispatched the following additional message on the subject, labelled "very urgent":
    This premise assumes that Russia would have had an interest in ending the war at Japan's earliest convenience. Why would the Kremlin oblige when there were pearls to pluck? Did you know that Russia to this day occupies a string of Japanese islands captured in the waning days of WWII? Although Japan has demanded their return numerous times since, Russia still considers these captured islands as the spoils of war.

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