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Thread: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

  1. #121
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    Surrender was being discussed; however, Japan was unwilling to part with their emporer. This was their main reservation for accepting the terms of the treaty.

    Then there was also the fact that the allies had to weigh the cost of taking Japan by military force. Brig. Gen. Guy Denit, estimated that a 120-day campaign to invade and occupy only the island of Kyushu would result in 395,000 casualties (including allies, axis, and civilians).

    Kyushi is the southermost island in the chain. There are many islands in this chain, which means the estimated casulaties on the side of the allies alone would be astronomical.

    The allied commanders knew they didn't have the man power to take the islands one at a time. Another solution was required. Japan had to know that the allies were NOT going to be stopped. A show of force was required.

    President Truman was left with little choice. It occurrs to me that the allies didn't want the Russians to seize control of Japan like they did in Germany after Berlin fell. The Russians were our allies but we, the allies, knew that Stalin was an unstable lunatic.

    Whether it was the casulty estimates or a need to keep Russia from controlling Japan or possibly both will never be known. It will continue to be a topic of debate.

    The atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan killed as many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki by the end of 1945, roughly half on the days of the bombings.

    Six days after the detonation over Nagasaki, on August 15, Japan announced its surrender to the Allied Powers, signing the Instrument of Surrender on September 2, officially ending the Pacific War and therefore World War II.

    These bombings were seen by the Truman Administration as the lesser of two evils.
    United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (Pacific War)
    There is little point in attempting precisely to impute Japan's unconditional surrender to any one of the numerous causes which jointly and cumulatively were responsible for Japan's disaster. The time lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a more rapid and decisive determination of national policies. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion.


    Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.
    PS - The people directly involved in this conflict (ie - General MacArthur or the Chief of Staff to the President) found the atomic bombings militarily unnecessary:
    Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include General of the Army Douglas MacArthur, Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President), Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials), and Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.
    "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.

    "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion , and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.
    I suggest reading some of what General MacArthur wrote about the atomic bombings.

    Also, the atomic bombing of Nagasaki was completely wrong. The destruction method the United States possessed only needed a few extra days to reach through the hierarchy of Japan. If Hiroshima served to show what was at stake to Japan (as Truman apologists always do), then the Nagasaki bombings only showed the inane lunacy of Truman.

  2. #122
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I
    First, my comments regarding AS's posts were pointing out his hypocrisy in asserting first that the Japanese were incredibly weak and impotent and second that it would have cost millions of lives.

    Second, in case you haven't read any of my posts here (which is apparent by your supposition), I am stating that instead of nuking hundreds of thousands of civilians or "killing 15 million" in an invasion, that they could have just negotiated terms of surrender with the Japanese, whose conditions were not really that difficult.

    Third, I am asserting that the allied powers and especially the US were not interested in achieving surrender from the Japanese prior to the dropping of the atomic bombs.
    First, The Japanese were prepared to fight to the last man. They had 1 million trained troops availabe on the mainland, and, like the Germans, they were getting childern, elderly, and women ready to fight. On Okinawa, women had jumped off cliffs with their childern to save them from dishonor. That was the Japanese mentality.

    Secondly, most military commanders opposed the idea of surrendering after the atom bombs were dropped. The Supreme Council had been divided on whether to surrender, and that's why the decision went to the emperor. After his decision had become final and war hawks had failed to convince him otherwise, several high ranking officers were determined to get to him before he could the radio broadcast to the people telling them to surrender and instead have him announce that Japan would fight to the death. The Kyūjō Incident was an attempted Coup d'état taking place in Japan from August 12-15. The Coup d'état was unsuccessful because of a string of failed assassinations and the ultimately unsuccessful assault on the palace, when the Eastern District Army decided to subdue and told the rebels to surrender...

    So much for your easy surrender...

    http://warhistorian.org/grimsley-coup-what-if.pdf

    Lastly, on july 26, the United States, Britain, and China released the Potsdam Declaration announcing the terms for Japan's surrender, with the warning, "We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay."

    The Japanese had no intent on surrendering, they believed the United States was bluffing about possessing an atom bomb and if the US did have one, they surely did not have multiple. Actually, the US had 2 and if the Japanese had not surrendered after the dropping of both, an invasion would be imminent(It would have taken several months to develop another). Millions of Japanese and Allied troops would be killed, Japan would be a crater and would not be able to recover for at least a half century.
    Last edited by Tubub; 03-15-09 at 05:08 PM.

  3. #123
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    First, The Japanese were prepared to fight to the last man. They had 1 million trained troops availabe on the mainland, and, like the Germans, they were getting childern, elderly, and women ready to fight. On Okinawa, women had jumped off cliffs with their childern to save them from dishonor. That was the Japanese mentality.

    Secondly, most military commanders opposed the idea of surrendering after the atom bombs were dropped. The Supreme Council had been divided on whether to surrender, and that's why the decision went to the emperor. After his decision had become final and war hawks had failed to convince him otherwise, several high ranking officers were determined to get to him before he could the radio broadcast to the people telling them to surrender and instead have him announce that Japan would fight to the death. The Kyūjō Incident was an attempted Coup d'état taking place in Japan from August 12-15. The Coup d'état was unsuccessful because of a string of failed assassinations and the ultimately unsuccessful assault on the palace, when the Eastern District Army decided to subdue and told the rebels to surrender...
    What is your point? I never denied any of this. Your post was pointless.


    Lastly, on july 26, the United States, Britain, and China released the Potsdam Declaration announcing the terms for Japan's surrender, with the warning, "We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay."
    Again, I've already acknowledged this fact, so you are not saying anything new or substantial here.

    The Japanese had no intent on surrendering
    No, they had no intent on unconditionally surrendering; they were more than willing to surrender if one could be negotiated, which owing to their conditions would not have been hard at all.

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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    What is your point? I never denied any of this. Your post was pointless.



    Again, I've already acknowledged this fact, so you are not saying anything new or substantial here.



    No, they had no intent on unconditionally surrendering; they were more than willing to surrender if one could be negotiated, which owing to their conditions would not have been hard at all.
    What the hell was the point of this post? You just argued that Japan would have surrendered if given the oppurtunity, which they were and they did not surrender. Now your arguing they didn't want unconditional surrender, show me one gesture they made to try and negotiate... You also claimed an invasion would not have been costly, utter nonsense. It's all the same with commies, history is whatever fits your view of it. It doesn't matter what really happened, everything is distorted so it's aligned with your ideaology. F***ing reds....

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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (Pacific War)


    PS - The people directly involved in this conflict (ie - General MacArthur or the Chief of Staff to the President) found the atomic bombings militarily unnecessary:


    I suggest reading some of what General MacArthur wrote about the atomic bombings.

    Also, the atomic bombing of Nagasaki was completely wrong. The destruction method the United States possessed only needed a few extra days to reach through the hierarchy of Japan. If Hiroshima served to show what was at stake to Japan (as Truman apologists always do), then the Nagasaki bombings only showed the inane lunacy of Truman.

    Too bad that McArthur wanted to nuke China during the Korean war. So much for McArthur finding the atom bomb unnecessary or too inhumane to use in war. The Japanese had ample time, after Hiroshima commanders that had doubted the United States could possess an atomb bomb now said there was no possibility we had a second. After Nagusaki, these people were completely discredited. Your idea is that the US should've been unbelievably cautious and should've expected the Japanese to be willing to surrender or even willing to bend their policy... Imperial Japan was unmerciful and arrogant, they massacred hundreds of thousands in China and commited similar attrocities in the pacific islands, specifically the philipinnes. If they ever were in possession of an atom bomb, they would not hesistate for half a second to drop it on a US industrial city. They were fighting before we entered, they attacked US... they made the nature of the Pacific Theatre the way it was, we didn't.

    So just because your enemy is ruthless and animalistic, does that justify you to be the same way? No, but your not going to risk victory and potentially hundreds of thousands of your own men just so the Japanese could have a couple more days to think it over. The entire argument assumes Imperial Japan was not a militaristic and ritualistic society, when it was exactly the opposite. Japanese officers sent their men on bonzai charges right into machine fire, they themselves carried samurai swords and in the event of defeat or imminent defeat, they commited suicide. Again, Japanese women in Okinawa jumped off cliffs with their children as to save their honor... what makes you think Japan would suddenly reverse course and want to negotiate out of the blue? No, they had to pummeled before they would negotiate, and Truman played it as he knew he had to, as the conditions existed, not as he would ideally hope reality to be.

    “War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."
    -William T. Sherman

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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    You just argued that Japan would have surrendered if given the oppurtunity, which they were and they did not surrender.
    No, they had no intent on unconditionally surrendering; they were more than willing to surrender if one could be negotiated, which owing to their conditions would not have been hard at all.

    Now your arguing they didn't want unconditional surrender
    This is always what I've been arguing.

    show me one gesture they made to try and negotiate...
    On 12 July--the day after advising Ambassador Sato [sic] of Japan's desire to "make use of Russia in ending the war"--Foreign Minister Togo dispatched the following additional message on the subject, labelled "very urgent":

    ...

    "His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland. His majesty is deeply reluctant to have any further blood lost among the people on both sides, and it is his desire for the welfare of all humanity to restore peace with all possible speed.

    "The emperor's will, as expressed above, arises not only from his benevolence toward his own subjects but from his concern for the welfare of humanity in general. It is the Emperor's private intention to send Prince Konoye to Moscow as a Special Envoy with a letter from him containing the statements given above. Please inform Molotov of this and get the Russians' consent to having the party enter the country...

    "Magic"-Diplomatic Summary - 13 July 1945

    Ultra Top Secret - Declassified 7/20/05
    It goes on.

    You also claimed an invasion would not have been costly, utter nonsense.
    I never said that.

    It's all the same with commies, history is whatever fits your view of it. It doesn't matter what really happened, everything is distorted so it's aligned with your ideaology. F***ing reds....


    This is hilarious given the fact that it is you that is attempting to not only distort history, but what the person with which you are debating has said as well. And you're doing even a bad job at that. Try to be more subtle; maybe nobody will notice next time.

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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    No, they had no intent on unconditionally surrendering; they were more than willing to surrender if one could be negotiated, which owing to their conditions would not have been hard at all.



    This is always what I've been arguing.





    It goes on.



    I never said that.





    This is hilarious given the fact that it is you that is attempting to not only distort history, but what the person with which you are debating has said as well. And you're doing even a bad job at that. Try to be more subtle; maybe nobody will notice next time.
    Try to be more subtle? Good one...

    To begin with, the gesture was to the emperor, not the Allies. But going past that, Togo did not run the show by any means. And I've already stated that the Supreme War Council(which didn't include Togo) was divided, and that is why the decision ultimately went to the Emperor instead of War Prime Minister Tojo.


    Tojo's notes reveal unwillingness to surrender


    "Wartime Prime Minister Gen. Hideki Tojo didn't want Japan to accept the Potsdam Declaration demanding unconditional surrender to the Allies, according to his private notes written immediately after the atomic bombings and found recently at the National Archives of Japan.

    In the two weeks' worth of memos starting Aug. 10, 1945, Tojo accused the government of being "frightened by new types of bombs and scared of the Soviet Union's entry into the war" in the Pacific theater.

    "The Japanese government has accepted the notion that Japan is the loser and it appears to be going to accept unconditional surrender," Tojo wrote.
    I didn't know they were fussing so much about unconditional surrender, as if negotiated surrender would be much different... How would the US have known this?


    But the fact remains that the bombings saved lives, that is, any alternative course of action would have resulted in even greater loss of life. Therefore, Truman is justified in his decision to nuke Japan, as it was a war and the decision had been made in the military to use "the full application of [Ally] military power,". General Marshall had estimated it would cost at least half a million lives if the Allies were to invade the United States, and that's excluding the huge loss of Japanese life that would be inevitable. In the end, why should the US have assumed Japan wanted to surrender? Look at my comment I made in response to some other dude, I do not want to write it all over again.

    I've heard the arguement that Japan wished to use the USSR as an intermediary, if you know much about that elaborate... I want to hear a legitimate argument from you, if you are right then I will change my opinion. I'm not ignorant like a commie or something like that
    Last edited by Tubub; 03-15-09 at 11:12 PM.

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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    To begin with, the gesture was to the emperor, not the Allies.
    The gesture was from the emperor to the USSR, which was a member of the Allied coalition.

    But going past that, Togo did not run the show by any means.
    I never claimed he did. As has already been stated, this was being relayed through Togo from the Emperor.

    And I've already stated that the Supreme War Council(which didn't include Togo) was divided, and that is why the decision ultimately went to the Emperor instead of War Prime Minister Tojo.
    Again, why you are stating these obvious facts is beyond me, as I am not disagreeing with them but in fact am acknowledging them.

    Tojo's notes reveal unwillingness to surrender
    "Wartime Prime Minister Gen. Hideki Tojo didn't want Japan to accept the Potsdam Declaration demanding unconditional surrender to the Allies, according to his private notes written immediately after the atomic bombings and found recently at the National Archives of Japan.

    In the two weeks' worth of memos starting Aug. 10, 1945, Tojo accused the government of being "frightened by new types of bombs and scared of the Soviet Union's entry into the war" in the Pacific theater.

    "The Japanese government has accepted the notion that Japan is the loser and it appears to be going to accept unconditional surrender," Tojo wrote.
    Again, you're repeating what I've already stated and acknowledged. I have never argued that unconditional surrender was an option. Moreover, I'm confused as to why you're even quoting this, as you yourself earlier stated that Togo wasn't in charge. What Togo actually thought is irrelevant.

    I didn't know they were fussing so much about unconditional surrender, as if negotiated surrender would be much different... How would the US have known this?
    I'm not sure what you're saying here, due to the poor wording of these sentences. How did you not know they were fussing so much about unconditional surrender? I've been saying in all of my posts that they would not accept it.

    How would the US have known what? That the Japanese were willing to negotiate the terms of surrender? Why would you even think they wouldn't know?

    But the fact remains that the bombings saved lives
    You have no possible way of substantiating this at all. What we do know for a fact, though, is that the bombings ended hundreds of thousands of lives.

    that is, any alternative course of action would have resulted in even greater loss of life.
    Except surrender, which is what we are discussing.

    In the end, why should the US have assumed Japan wanted to surrender? Look at my comment I made in response to some other dude, I do not want to write it all over again.

    I've heard the arguement that Japan wished to use the USSR as an intermediary, if you know much about that elaborate... I want to hear a legitimate argument from you, if you are right then I will change my opinion. I'm not ignorant like a commie or something like that
    Why should I care if you change your views? It is of no importance to me whether or not you agree with me. I am interested in the development of my views; if you were actually offering up intelligent, productive debate then I would be more than happy to continue this discussion.

    However, it is clear by the tone of your posts, by your purposeful distortion and ignorance of what I have said and in the end making such a ridiculous claim as to how the US would know proves to me that you have no interest whatsoever in any form of productive discussion.

    If you want to have one, then by all means make a post supporting your argument that doesn't include such distortions or ridiculous inquiries. I will be more than happy to respond. But until then if you want me to educate you then pay me; otherwise, go read about it yourself.

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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    Tubub, Welcome to DP.



    KC and dee still trying to rewrite history I see......

  10. #130
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    Re: Iran passes redline, has enough U235 for Bomb

    KC and dee still trying to rewrite history I see......
    If this is the case then you could have provided a little more insight as to where exactly anything said was incorrect instead of wasting yet another post on worthless libel and trolling.

    But we both know you're not interested in such a thing.

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