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Thread: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

  1. #131
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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Says who? The government...they can piss off. They don't get to make the rules. We were built upon revolution, if we were ever to revolt again we would have to talk about offing politicians. I don't agree with the law because I can make fun of anyone else, I can joke about shooting a whole long list of people. Hell, I can make the comment halfway serious without getting arrested. The President isn't anything special, he's just a guy. There should be no special rules which apply to him. If I can say something about a guy, and I can say the same thing about the President.



    Cops do not have rights. Well I mean, they have rights as individuals, they don't have rights as police officer. They have privilege and duty granted to them by the People, but there is nothing inherent in the job which gives them rights. Cops must have their power checked and minimized, especially when it comes to political dissent which must be one of the most highly valued and defended of all rights. There was no credible threat posed by the bumper sticker.



    A bumper sticker is a bumper sticker, it can't do anything other than express an opinion. Expressing an opinion shouldn't get you in trouble in this country nor should it mean probable cause for the authority to come down on you.
    Well that's all another debate entirely. I was merely answering the question from a, "Did this cop overstep his bounds as the law stands right now..." perspective.

    If your opinion is that folks should be able to say the President needs to be killed without consequence that's a whole other issue entirely and not speaking to this thread specifically.

    I am curious though as to why you would want the right to argue that the president deserves death? I mean as it stands now you are perfectly free to say almost anything but that. Must that be allowed to be said in order for you to feel that you have the freedom of dissent? Why would you want a revolution over that. You can call the Prez a tard, a pig, a dumbass, etc. I don't quite get why it's so bothersome to you that you aren't allowed to threaten his life, even jokingly.

  2. #132
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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Well that's all another debate entirely. I was merely answering the question from a, "Did this cop overstep his bounds as the law stands right now..." perspective.
    Aye, and I believe he has.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I am curious though as to why you would want the right to argue that the president deserves death?
    Treason. Treason is punished by death (hanging). If some President (and I'm not saying our current one specifically, it's a generalized thing) commits treason, I should be able to say he deserves to be hanged without consequence.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #133
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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Says who? The government...they can piss off. They don't get to make the rules. We were built upon revolution, if we were ever to revolt again we would have to talk about offing politicians. I don't agree with the law because I can make fun of anyone else, I can joke about shooting a whole long list of people. Hell, I can make the comment halfway serious without getting arrested. The President isn't anything special, he's just a guy. There should be no special rules which apply to him. If I can say something about a guy, and I can say the same thing about the President.



    Cops do not have rights. Well I mean, they have rights as individuals, they don't have rights as police officer. They have privilege and duty granted to them by the People, but there is nothing inherent in the job which gives them rights. Cops must have their power checked and minimized, especially when it comes to political dissent which must be one of the most highly valued and defended of all rights. There was no credible threat posed by the bumper sticker.



    A bumper sticker is a bumper sticker, it can't do anything other than express an opinion. Expressing an opinion shouldn't get you in trouble in this country nor should it mean probable cause for the authority to come down on you.
    Do you think that someone who is putting a sign on their car about abortion is joking? I've yet to see a pro-lifer talk about abortion in a humorous tone.

    You can't threaten to kill any US citizen.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    You can't threaten to kill any US citizen.
    I can't credibly threaten to kill anyone.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I can't credibly threaten to kill anyone.
    "Credibly" is a subjective term.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I notice a pattern with you. You're willing to squash the rights of the individual if it gets you what you want. So what? Is this not a debate board? Can I not state my opinion on the matter? Sounds more like you think I'm wrong and because if it I shouldn't get to talk. Sorry that all my arguments are based in the innate and inalienable rights of the individual and that you have a problem with it, but you can either discuss it or ignore it. These little digs are the only thing you've posted at me, and it's pointless little insult and nothing more.

    And BTW, I didn't say it was unlimited. I said if I can say something about some guy, I can say the same thing about the President. That's it. Thanks for reading. kthanxbia.
    I understand that it's a debate board. I guess, for me, I don't see debating as ignoring the other person's argument entirely. I think you can understand (which does not mean you agree with) another person's argument and still disagree with it. Based on the way you respond to very rational posts (like talloulou's), I get the impression as though you're standing there with your ears plugged and repeating your argument over and over again. To me, that's not debating. But this, of course, is just my opinion. I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you--just making an observation.

    Yeah, the president should be considered an ordinary citizen. Yeah. Okay.

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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    "Credibly" is a subjective term.
    Aye. Government likes subjective, gives them plenty of leeway. I try to go for more absolutes. I can't hire a hitman, that seems rather absolute. I can't actually plan a murder, I can't directly threaten people with deadly weapons, etc. But if I'm just sitting in a bar or something and am just like "Oh man...I'm gonna kill that Joe Bob!", not sure I just did anything wrong. I suppose it depends on other evidence to back it up. It's not the phrase itself but context and other actions along with it that would make it a credible offense or not. Still, the restrictions are on the State, not the individual. That's the side I prefer to stay on.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    I personally think that the irony of someone who is pro-life having a bumper sticker like this is absolutely hilarious. It's like when a pro-life person killed Dr. David Gunn. You aren't exactly pro-life if you are calling for the death of another person.

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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Aye, and I believe he has.



    Treason. Treason is punished by death (hanging). If some President (and I'm not saying our current one specifically, it's a generalized thing) commits treason, I should be able to say he deserves to be hanged without consequence.
    Actually you might be right. If the guy had mailed this bumper sticker in a letter, sent it via email, posted it on line, etc then he'd be in violation

    (a) Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. (b) The terms "President-elect" and "Vice President-elect" as used in this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful candidates for the offices of President and Vice President, respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The phrase "other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President" as used in this section shall mean the person next in the order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 19 and 20.
    but I wouldn't think a bumper sticker violated the spirit of this code no matter what it said. Is there another code that pertains to threats against the president which aren't mailed, transmitted online, emailed, etc? Maybe you are allowed to verbally say whatever you want as well as hang whatever the heck you want on your car. If this is the only code out there I change my mind. The bumper sticker was fine as it wasn't being mailed, transmitted, sent, etc in any fashion.

  10. #140
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    Re: OKC officer pulls man over for anti-Obama sign on vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    I don't see debating as ignoring the other person's argument entirely.
    It's not ignoring. If I differ on the base reasons as to why someone thinks something is wrong, I may be able to understand the logic that got one there, but I can't agree with or accept it. When people make arguments against the rights of the individual, we are gonna fall into that lot. It's like a lot of your arguments, they tend to be against property or privacy rights and while I can say "ok, DUI may be bad" I can not accept any authoritative practice that addresses the issue while infringing upon the rights of the individual.

    Here too. You can't threaten everyone, this is true. Freedom of speech has limits. If I have a bumper sticker that says "abort Jim Bob not babies", I'm not going to nor should I get in trouble for that. It's a stupid bumper sticker and there's nothing else to indicate it is a credible offense. The State has to find that it's credible, else I keep getting to do it. The restrictions are on the State, not the individual. Thus if I can do it to Jim Bob, I can do it do the President. Politicians further fall under more free license because they wield the power and soveriegnty of the People. Because of this, we have to be able to further talk out against them, it's important. Credible death threats...ok, maybe not on a daily basis. But political dissent, 100% must be upheld to its maximum. Regardless of the consequences because of it, there are a lot of dangers and responsibilities which come with freedom; I'd rather have that than the alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    Yeah, the president should be considered an ordinary citizen. Yeah. Okay.
    More a servant than ordinary citizen. But in the end the President is just one human, one guy. Sure he's one guy with arguably the worst job in the country. But he's in power cause we said he could be. He can be replaced, it's not tough. Being President does not make him better than me, it doesn't give him more rights than me; it just means he has to deal with a lot more **** than me.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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