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Thread: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Did this happen to this guy? I can agree if it was known by the companies that smoking was dangerous but the info was withheld from the customers but I'm pretty sure this guy took it up long after it was known what it could do or at least the vast majority of his smoking years were after it was well known what the dangers are.
    By then he was probably addicted to the product and unable to quit. Are you pretty sure or are you sure?

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    No... it's a lot more than about money. It's also got quite a bit about people believing government can or should regulate our daily lives and habits.

    Seat belt laws.
    Helmet laws.
    Cell phone while driving laws.
    Trans-fatty acid laws.
    No wood-burning fireplace laws.

    And there are other proposals in the works... taxing 'miles driven' for instance to incentivize us to cut down on our driving. Taxing ammunition and guns through the roof to prevent more people from buying them.

    Why not outlaw alcohol and pornography? Both are addictive, by the way.

    If the goal is to promote good health, why stop with cigarettes? Why not ban junk food? Junk food probably leads to more deaths and higher health costs every year than cigarettes. Alcohol abuse certainly accounts for a large number of health problems.

    So no, it's not just about the money. It's about people who believe they are 'doing good' by legislating the behavior of others. Of course, that's what legislation and laws are all about... regulating behavior. The question is when does that legislation become too extreme. And I think we've passed that point already.
    What's the alternative? We the tax payer foot the bill when someone else's dangerous activity results in hospitalization or disability. If you aren't going to be responsible, and your irresponsibility causes financial problems beyond your means, then what? Let them suffer? and so too their families and friends? How about as a society we say "sorry, that is too dangerous for EVERYONE so you can't do it".

    Do you know what head injuries from not wearing a helmet cost the tax payers before and after the law was enacted?

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What's the alternative? We the tax payer foot the bill when someone else's dangerous activity results in hospitalization or disability. If you aren't going to be responsible, and your irresponsibility causes financial problems beyond your means, then what? Let them suffer? and so too their families and friends? How about as a society we say "sorry, that is too dangerous for EVERYONE so you can't do it".

    Do you know what head injuries from not wearing a helmet cost the tax payers before and after the law was enacted?
    Are you in support of Universal Healthcare?

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What's the alternative? We the tax payer foot the bill when someone else's dangerous activity results in hospitalization or disability. If you aren't going to be responsible, and your irresponsibility causes financial problems beyond your means, then what? Let them suffer? and so too their families and friends? How about as a society we say "sorry, that is too dangerous for EVERYONE so you can't do it".

    Do you know what head injuries from not wearing a helmet cost the tax payers before and after the law was enacted?
    Fine... if what you're looking at is strictly cost-benefit, then why not as a society ban alcohol? What do you think costs more to taxpayers each year? Not wearing helmets? Or alcohol-related injuries, death, and disease?


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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Fine... if what you're looking at is strictly cost-benefit, then why not as a society ban alcohol? What do you think costs more to taxpayers each year? Not wearing helmets? Or alcohol-related injuries, death, and disease?

    Alcohol??? I believe that the single biggest killer in America I believe is the automobile; we need to ban them.

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    By then he was probably addicted to the product and unable to quit. Are you pretty sure or are you sure?
    Smoking is not impossible to quit and he knew the dangers.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    We've been down this road. If they don't have insurance or insurance that covers smoking cessation, then maybe they can't afford it.
    Then they die. They knew the risks, cry me a bloody river.

    Charity? Please.
    You said you weren't a liberal but here you sre deriding private charity.


    Yes, we can't remove everyone from all personal accountability. I agree. Just as it was the smoker's decision to buy a toxic product, so too it is the company's decision to put a toxic, addictive substance on the market. They are both equally responsible for the smoker's long-term health.
    And no one forced these people to buy it.

    To say that it's all the smoker's fault is removing accountability from corporations that are profitting on people's addiction, cancers, and respiratory diseases.
    Not really, they wouldn't be profiting if people took responsibility.

    Bottom line these people knew what it would do to them, they still chose to do it. That is no one's fault but their own and no one else should be forced to pay for it.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Bottom line these people knew what it would do to them, they still chose to do it. That is no one's fault but their own and no one else should be forced to pay for it.
    Well... there are several practical problems with this. Suppose a sixty y/o is admitted to the hospital suffering from lung or heart disease or cancer. And suppose during the history it's revealed that the person was a light smoker for a few years during her 20s. Does this disqualify her from care? Are you certain the disease was caused by the smoking? What if she'd smoked for five years? Or ten?

    What if an alcoholic is admitted to the hospital with liver disease? Should they be forced to pay since they chose to drink?

    Or an obese person who chose to eat?

    Or an out of shape person who chose not to exercise?

    Lots of poor choices lead to high medical costs. Why do so many seem to want to pick on smokers? My answer? Great work by the anti-smoking lobby!


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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Well... there are several practical problems with this. Suppose a sixty y/o is admitted to the hospital suffering from lung or heart disease or cancer. And suppose during the history it's revealed that the person was a light smoker for a few years during her 20s. Does this disqualify her from care? Are you certain the disease was caused by the smoking? What if she'd smoked for five years? Or ten?
    How is this a problem? Does the fact you have to cut the wood to certain dimensions mean you can't make a house out of wood. It is perfectly possible to make decisions about these kinds of things.
    What if an alcoholic is admitted to the hospital with liver disease? Should they be forced to pay since they chose to drink?
    Probably.

    Or an obese person who chose to eat?

    Or an out of shape person who chose not to exercise?
    I think if you are morbidly obese then perhaps. Obviously I'm more talking about major choices like smoking, drinking morbid obesity and such. They certainly shouldn't be treated for free on the NHS.

    Lots of poor choices lead to high medical costs. Why do so many seem to want to pick on smokers? My answer? Great work by the anti-smoking lobby!

    What an excellent argument for private healthcare.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Then they die. They knew the risks, cry me a bloody river.
    Then we should also ignore the obesity epidemic in America, because those people chose their fate. Let's just let an entire generation (most of them under 30) suffer cardiovascular decay and die young because of their choices. We should ignore chronic alcoholics and not offer them help, because, you know, they aren't addicts, they are just stupid people that are making bad choices.

    You don't understand addiction at all. Until you demonstrate that you do, there is no further need to argue with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You said you weren't a liberal but here you sre deriding private charity.
    Not relevant to this debate, nor am I interested in what you think I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    And no one forced these people to buy it.
    And no one forced the companies to sell a product that was refined to be toxic and addictive. I already agree with you that the buyer is responsible, but so is the company. What kind of corporate socialist are you? Corporations should be held accountable for their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not really, they wouldn't be profiting if people took responsibility.
    And people wouldn't be dying if they didn't sell them. So there you go. Two sides of the same coin. Why are you so reluctant to come to this conclusion?

    Individual responsibility and corporate responsibility are two things I am in favour of. Corporations are also comprised of human beings that can make choices. Just because the market provides them with the opportunity to sell a deadly product, doesn't mean they should.

    I agree that if cigarettes were introduced today they would not be made legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Bottom line these people knew what it would do to them, they still chose to do it. That is no one's fault but their own and no one else should be forced to pay for it.
    In order to cut down on smoking in America, more smokers who are helplessly addicted should sue even more to put a dent in these companies. The government won't shut them down because the government is making profit off of addiction as well; the tobacco companies won't slow down, they will only expand and try to get more people hooked; and the people who are hooked might be hooked for the long term.

    I think lawsuits are perfectly acceptable.

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