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Thread: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

  1. #151
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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Very few people can quit smoking through will power alone... last statistic I read was somewhere between 3-5%. Most people need additional help in the form of medication and counseling if they are serious about it. Long-term smokers, such as adults who have been smoking since adolescence, will have a much harder time quitting than people who are relatively newer to smoking.

    The smoking cessation industry accounts for $3 billion per year in the U.S. alone. If it were easy to quit this industry would vanish over night. Your suggestion that people simply take personal responsibility is insufficient. The vast majority of smokers start at a young age which is the age group that the tobacco companies target (unless there is legislation to prevent it). It is also incredibly difficult to quit, as a long-term smoker, if you are constantly running into other smokers in your life, like at your work, at restaurants/bars, or even just walking down the street.

    I don't think you truly grasp the gravity of what addiction is, which is why you think it's somehow an easy matter to toss a substance abuse problem out the window. Even people who have quit can have cravings years and years after the fact. The same goes for hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, etc. Maybe if smokers were having serious withdrawl symptoms that require hospitalization like with hard drugs, people would take their addiction problem more seriously?

    Addiction is addiction and it should never be minimized as it can negatively effect the lives of those ailed and all those who know them.
    Last edited by Orion; 02-24-09 at 01:13 AM.

  2. #152
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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Very few people can quit smoking through will power alone... last statistic I read was somewhere between 3-5%. Most people need additional help in the form of medication and counseling if they are serious about it. Long-term smokers, such as adults who have been smoking since adolescence, will have a much harder time quitting than people who are relatively newer to smoking.

    The smoking cessation industry accounts for $3 billion per year in the U.S. alone. If it were easy to quit this industry would vanish over night. Your suggestion that people simply take personal responsibility is insufficient. The vast majority of smokers start at a young age which is the age group that the tobacco companies target (unless there is legislation to prevent it). It is also incredibly difficult to quit, as a long-term smoker, if you are constantly running into other smokers in your life, like at your work, at restaurants/bars, or even just walking down the street.
    These people take responsibility and seek help. Personal responsibility does not preclude co-operation, I'm not talking about some kind of rugged individualism.


    I don't think you truly grasp the gravity of what addiction is, which is why you think it's somehow an easy matter to toss a substance abuse problem out the window. Even people who have quit can have cravings years and years after the fact. The same goes for hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, etc. Maybe if smokers were having serious withdrawl symptoms that require hospitalization like with hard drugs, people would take their addiction problem more seriously?
    I smoked and quit.

    Addiction is addiction and it should never be minimized as it can negatively effect the lives of those ailed and all those who know them.
    These people take up smoking when they know it is addictive and dangerous. In Australia and the UK anti-smoking advertising and information through schools and such actually is far more than pro-smoking stuff.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    These people take responsibility and seek help. Personal responsibility does not preclude co-operation, I'm not talking about some kind of rugged individualism.
    Great, so are you going to pay for it? Don't forget to account for the fact that "seeking help" costs more money than buying a pack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I smoked and quit.
    Me too.. that doesn't mean everyone can do it so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    These people take up smoking when they know it is addictive and dangerous. In Australia and the UK anti-smoking advertising and information through schools and such actually is far more than pro-smoking stuff.
    While there has been a big reduction in smoking in Western societies, there are still a lot of people who do. I don't think it's fair to stigmatize everyone who does, even though I myself do not support smoking.

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Great, so are you going to pay for it? Don't forget to account for the fact that "seeking help" costs more money than buying a pack.
    Nope. I believe smokers should probably have to pay for healthcare.


    Me too.. that doesn't mean everyone can do it so easily.
    Maybe they shouldn't take it up then......


    While there has been a big reduction in smoking in Western societies, there are still a lot of people who do. I don't think it's fair to stigmatize everyone who does, even though I myself do not support smoking.
    That's great. They still knew the dangers.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Nope. I believe smokers should probably have to pay for healthcare.
    I agree, which leads me to my next point... if people aren't rich and don't have health insurance which covers smoking cessation, how do you expect them to pay for it? It's far simpler to just continue buying cigarettes than to pay even more money for smoking cessation products, therapies, and medications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Maybe they shouldn't take it up then......
    Sure... and maybe they should sue companies that are making their product so addictive that they can't quit? They don't deserve to die because they made a bad choice ten years ago.

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I agree, which leads me to my next point... if people aren't rich and don't have health insurance which covers smoking cessation, how do you expect them to pay for it?
    Charity, insurance.

    It's far simpler to just continue buying cigarettes than to pay even more money for smoking cessation products, therapies, and medications.
    Then don't take it up.


    Sure... and maybe they should sue companies that are making their product so addictive that they can't quit? They don't deserve to die because they made a bad choice ten years ago.
    Then pay for their healthcare. They made the choice and they should live with it. They knew the dangers. We can't remove everyone from all personal responsibility, that is a bad road to take.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Charity, insurance.
    We've been down this road. If they don't have insurance or insurance that covers smoking cessation, then maybe they can't afford it.

    Charity? Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Then don't take it up.

    Then pay for their healthcare. They made the choice and they should live with it. They knew the dangers. We can't remove everyone from all personal responsibility, that is a bad road to take.
    Yes, we can't remove everyone from all personal accountability. I agree. Just as it was the smoker's decision to buy a toxic product, so too it is the company's decision to put a toxic, addictive substance on the market. They are both equally responsible for the smoker's long-term health.

    To say that it's all the smoker's fault is removing accountability from corporations that are profitting on people's addiction, cancers, and respiratory diseases.

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    Okay. Is this supposed to upset me?
    You are not bothered by the fact you through the patronage of certain food and beverage brands that you basically helped paid big tobacco's fines?

    It is the equivalent of the speeder handing you the speeding ticket every time he gets pulled over for speeding and you cheering it on as though somehow the speeder is suffering.

    Would you ground, spank or punish yourself some other way every time the child does something wrong? "Look Timmy you shouldn't skip school and beat up nerds, for that daddy is going to spank mommy and then mommy is going to ground herself for two weeks, I hope you learn your lesson after this."
    Last edited by jamesrage; 02-24-09 at 01:50 PM.
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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    The government would never in a million years allow a product like cigarettes to be sold in the US if it was introduced today.

    Its all about money.

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    Re: Philip Morris told to pay 8 mln in smoker's death

    Quote Originally Posted by sazerac View Post
    The government would never in a million years allow a product like cigarettes to be sold in the US if it was introduced today.

    Its all about money.
    No... it's a lot more than about money. It's also got quite a bit about people believing government can or should regulate our daily lives and habits.

    Seat belt laws.
    Helmet laws.
    Cell phone while driving laws.
    Trans-fatty acid laws.
    No wood-burning fireplace laws.

    And there are other proposals in the works... taxing 'miles driven' for instance to incentivize us to cut down on our driving. Taxing ammunition and guns through the roof to prevent more people from buying them.

    Why not outlaw alcohol and pornography? Both are addictive, by the way.

    If the goal is to promote good health, why stop with cigarettes? Why not ban junk food? Junk food probably leads to more deaths and higher health costs every year than cigarettes. Alcohol abuse certainly accounts for a large number of health problems.

    So no, it's not just about the money. It's about people who believe they are 'doing good' by legislating the behavior of others. Of course, that's what legislation and laws are all about... regulating behavior. The question is when does that legislation become too extreme. And I think we've passed that point already.

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