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Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

americanwoman said:
Oh really, did he start a war on the Jewish establishment and slaughter them in protest? Or did he take them on in a peaceful, pacifist like manner?
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He did run through the temple with a bull whip acting like a madman such that people fled in fear.

Supposedly the Ethiopians have supplemental scripture of Jesus harming people with his powers for petty revenge when he was a child. ( I've yet to look this up myself so its merely hear-say for now.)
 
Hatuey said:
Getting shown up? Still having premature ejaculations eh Ludahai?

Read the thread :

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...holocaust-denier-will-review-evidence-11.html

Like you ussually do. You disappear when hit with facts. Like your claim that Jews survived more in Catholic countries even though well. 2 million Jews were killed in Poland, a country with a 90% Catholic majority. Keep trying ludahai. Waited a full 2 pages to reply with the same nonsense you had spewed before. Maybe sometime your coward will be revered by people who don't realize he was a coward. Until then.
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Actually, YOU are the one who disappeared after I made a proposal for a true debate with you this summer and posted a link with some reality about what the Church did.
 
aps said:
Oh please, ludahai. Do you believe everything Catholicism tells you? If so, wow--you clearly don't have a mind of your own.

I am so glad to be rid of that ridiculous religion. No offense to Catholics.
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What makes Catholicism such a rediculous religion? You ignore the wonderful things the Catholic Church has done for nearly two thousand years as well as the fact that if everyone lived by the teachings of the Faith, there would be far fewer problems in the world than there are now.
 
jamesrage said:
Before you accuse me of being pro-catholic. No I am not pro-catholic, I think Catholic are pagans not Christians. Anyone who preys/venerates to someone other than God is not a christian. Thats why I refer to catholics as pagans or when I talk about about their beliefs I say Catholicism, not Christianity .
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Catholics are Christians. Where did you get the Bible from? :rofl
 
ludahai said:
Catholics are Christians. Where did you get the Bible from? :rofl
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Catholics pray to many different "gods" (saints) and also have their followers practically worship "holy" beings such as bishops, cardinals, and the pope.

You could easily make the comparison to Greek structure of paganism.
 
Gibberish said:
Catholics pray to many different "gods" (saints) and also have their followers practically worship "holy" beings such as bishops, cardinals, and the pope.

You could easily make the comparison to Greek structure of paganism.
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Do you know what we are asking the saints to do when we pray the litany of the saints?

And NO, we do NOT worship saints, bishops, cardinals, the Pope or even Mary.

Of course, I don't expect non-Catholics who don't understand our faith to get the nuances, but you could please educate yourself before spouting off such obvious untruths.
 
ludahai said:
Actually, YOU are the one who disappeared after I made a proposal for a true debate with you this summer and posted a link with some reality about what the Church did.
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Dude....I posted...and like 3 days later you decided to post. Long after Arch Enemy or I had stopped posting. Get a clue.
 
ludahai said:
Do you know what we are asking the saints to do when we pray the litany of the saints?
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Yes I do.

ludahai said:
And NO, we do NOT worship saints, bishops, cardinals, the Pope or even Mary.

Of course, I don't expect non-Catholics who don't understand our faith to get the nuances, but you could please educate yourself before spouting off such obvious untruths.
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I didn't say Catholicism is actually pagan or that saints are worshiped (hence the quotes). I said that, from the outside, I could see how comparisons to paganism could be made.
 
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Hatuey said:
And if these politicians were elected on the premise that they were going to further the agendas of their constituents and not those an organization then you'd be completely right. But as it stands it is not the duty of any politician to further the agenda of the Catholic church.
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You are mistaking representatives for delegates. It is the duty of politicians to further the interests of their constituents as they stand in society not the "general will" shorn of all social associations and loyalties and it is the duty of politicians to use their judgement to do this. If you want delegates you have the wrong system.
 
Gibberish said:
Catholics pray to many different "gods" (saints) and also have their followers practically worship "holy" beings such as bishops, cardinals, and the pope.

You could easily make the comparison to Greek structure of paganism.
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No, we ask Saints to intervene, and help us pray to God.
 
Rev, I get what you are saying about following the religion you profess to believe. I do. I am simply suggesting that it is not impossible for a Catholic to vote for a bill allowing abortion, or against a bill banning abortion, and still be a Catholic. I say this because the existence of abortion as an option to unwanted pregnancies is not her actually having an abortion. One would argue that a more intelligent method for a Catholic to eliminate abortions would be not to ban them but to make them no longer necessary. As we've seen in the drug war just because something is banned does in no way mean that the act is performed less frequently. Her disagreement with the pope may very well be about thinking abortion is OK and not about how best to eliminate the practice. Her inner thoughts I don't know, and I'd guess it is more likely the former, but the concept of a Catholic not being a Catholic because they don't want to tear down Roe vs. Wade is incorrect in my opinion.
 
Those elected are politicians first, and then they are Catholics. The reason is that they do not just represent their own beliefs and biases, but those of their constituents. If a politician takes orders from the Pope, then he/she is usurping democratic process and should be removed from office. The Pope isn't even a U.S. citizen.
 
Orius said:
Those elected are politicians first, and then they are Catholics. The reason is that they do not just represent their own beliefs and biases, but those of their constituents. If a politician takes orders from the Pope, then he/she is usurping democratic process and should be removed from office. The Pope isn't even a U.S. citizen.
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That pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. I'm okay with them being Catholic, but we didn't vote in a Catholic, we voted in a politician to uphold the will of the people.
 
Orius said:
Those elected are politicians first, and then they are Catholics. The reason is that they do not just represent their own beliefs and biases, but those of their constituents. If a politician takes orders from the Pope, then he/she is usurping democratic process and should be removed from office. The Pope isn't even a U.S. citizen.
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The people voted for him knowing he is a Catholic. Also he is a representative not a delegate, he owes the people his judgement even if it goes against their opinions and finally this complaint could be made about just anything influencing him which didn't turn into some slave of the "general will". As far as I know the American system is run neither as one of delegates nor as one along the lines of the "general will" outside of society as it is constituted, so the general, liberal attacks on Catholic MPs don't mean much until then.
 
Indy said:
That pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. I'm okay with them being Catholic, but we didn't vote in a Catholic, we voted in a politician to uphold the will of the people.
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Actually they did vote for a Catholic and a representative who is to exercise his own judgement, even if unpopular.
 
Gibberish said:
Yes I do.



I didn't say Catholicism is actually pagan or that saints are worshiped (hence the quotes). I said that, from the outside, I could see how comparisons to paganism could be made.
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They how can you intelligently say we are NOT Christians?
 
Gibberish said:
Catholics pray to many different "gods" (saints) and also have their followers practically worship "holy" beings such as bishops, cardinals, and the pope.

You could easily make the comparison to Greek structure of paganism.
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What you are saying now does not jive with this post.
 
Orius said:
Those elected are politicians first, and then they are Catholics. The reason is that they do not just represent their own beliefs and biases, but those of their constituents. If a politician takes orders from the Pope, then he/she is usurping democratic process and should be removed from office. The Pope isn't even a U.S. citizen.
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But this isn't what a Catholic should be. One should be a Catholic first, and then whatever their occupation is second. In my occupation, I am expected by the tenets of my faith to live out my faith. I have twice been asked in the course of my work to act against those tenets. On both occasions I pointed this out to my superiors. In the first instance, they didn't relent and I resigned from the position. In the second, they DID in fact respect my faith and my adherence to it. IN fact, I think they respect me now MORE for standing up for my beliefs. Two years later, I am still there.
 
jamesrage said:
So you are saying that you would vote for a right wing politician?

There is reason why there is not a" I could care less who wins" option. It is because we pick politicians whose views closely match ours. Thats why you vote for liberal politicians and I vote for conservative politicians

IF you are religious then that religion you prescribe to is part of your beliefs. Its no different than a politician who is for gay marriage or a politician who is against abortion or a politician who is against illegal immigration for our outsourcing. You don't throw those views under the bus just because you got elected.

Again if you actually claim to be part of a religion you do not throw that religion under the bus just because you got elected to office.

I don't know about you but if I vote for a politician who claims to be of a particular political ideology and a certian religion then I expect that politician to uphold the beliefs of that ideology and religious beliefs.

If politicians claim to be a of a particular faith and they are not practicing or abiding by that faith then they should be called on it by their fellow religious members and leaders.
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You've hit the nail right on the head, which also in no small part explains the anger of us atheists in this country. It is impossible for an atheist to be an elected official in the legislative or executive branches of the Federal government, so it is technically also impossible for any elected official to represent us. Just as you bemoan any politician throwing their religion under the bus for the sake of his/her constituents, so too do we constantly worry that a politician, however similar to our polticial beliefs he claims to be, will throw us under the bus. It's this identity crisis of theirs that makes it impossible for me to trust anybody I vote for not even counting the fact that most polticians are power hungry egomaniacs to begin with.
 
aps said:
Oh please, ludahai. Do you believe everything Catholicism tells you? If so, wow--you clearly don't have a mind of your own.

I am so glad to be rid of that ridiculous religion. No offense to Catholics.
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thank goodness you stuck that last sentence in there. otherwise your post might have been extremely offensive.
 
ludahai said:
But this isn't what a Catholic should be. One should be a Catholic first, and then whatever their occupation is second. In my occupation, I am expected by the tenets of my faith to live out my faith. I have twice been asked in the course of my work to act against those tenets. On both occasions I pointed this out to my superiors. In the first instance, they didn't relent and I resigned from the position. In the second, they DID in fact respect my faith and my adherence to it. IN fact, I think they respect me now MORE for standing up for my beliefs. Two years later, I am still there.
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A politician's upbringing determines their moral compass, so I can partly accept what you're saying. However, when presented with a life or death situation that affects the entire country, and if the will of the people contradicts your Catholic faith, what do you do? Side with your faith?

A politician whose faith overrides democratic decisions should not be a politician. I respect if you disagree, but secular institutions have been tainted by religion enough as it is.
 
ludahai said:
But this isn't what a Catholic should be. One should be a Catholic first, and then whatever their occupation is second. In my occupation, I am expected by the tenets of my faith to live out my faith. I have twice been asked in the course of my work to act against those tenets. On both occasions I pointed this out to my superiors. In the first instance, they didn't relent and I resigned from the position. In the second, they DID in fact respect my faith and my adherence to it. IN fact, I think they respect me now MORE for standing up for my beliefs. Two years later, I am still there.
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A politician's upbringing determines their moral compass, so I can partly accept what you're saying. However, when presented with a life or death situation that affects the entire country, and if the will of the people contradicts your Catholic faith, what do you do? Side with your faith?

A politician whose faith overrides democratic decisions should not be a politician. I respect if you disagree, but secular institutions have been tainted by religion enough as it is.
 
Orius said:
A politician's upbringing determines their moral compass, so I can partly accept what you're saying. However, when presented with a life or death situation that affects the entire country, and if the will of the people contradicts your Catholic faith, what do you do? Side with your faith?

A politician whose faith overrides democratic decisions should not be a politician. I respect if you disagree, but secular institutions have been tainted by religion enough as it is.
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I do disagree.

If you can't live your conscience in your job, perhaps one should find another job - as I once did.

I don't want a theocracy by any means, but at the same time the values of religious people are a part of the society. Those values should (and in the US, DO have a voice). I do happen to believe that the teachings of the Church are NOT in conflict with what is in the best interests of the United States or any other country.
 
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