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Thread: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Heh.

    Well, that's certainly not what this ex-Catholic was taught.

    But, how exactly would there be no other way to avoid capital punishment when life in prison is an option?
    People often have different opinions about interpreting Church teaching and the Pope has often spoken against Capital Punishment. However, I do not believe it has been taught as an official teaching of the Church (meaning it is in the Cathechism) or that the Pope has spoken ex cathedra about it. I didn't even see anything in the index of my CCC about it.
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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    I guess different parts of the world choose to teach a different version. I was taught that only God has the right to take a life. Which was consistent with subsequent teachings that both the DP and abortion are an abomination.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Governors do not sentence a person to death, nor do they carry out executions. A governor who does not act to stay an execution is not committing a sin. To NOT act, does not make one culpable of the action that occurs.

    As a Catholic, I can't think of an instance where the death penalty would be appropriate, but, if I was in a situation where I was defending my life or my children's life...you betcha, I'd be willing to be an executioner and I'd be fully justified in doing so.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I guess different parts of the world choose to teach a different version.
    Catholicism is the same, everywhere and for all time. What is true now, has always been true. In some respects, however, our understanding of that truth has been made more clear.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    But if the Pope himself speaks out against it, doesn't he hold the ultimate authority as the representative of your god on Earth? If he really was chosen by God, then the words he speaks are also God's words.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    But if the Pope himself speaks out against it, doesn't he hold the ultimate authority as the representative of your god on Earth? If he really was chosen by God, then the words he speaks are also God's words.
    Not every word he utters...

    The pope is a man--a very holy man, but he's a man. When he speaks "from the chair of Peter" (ex cathedra, as ludahai already mentioned) then it is with the authority granted him by Jesus where He said, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Only then is the pope speaking infallably on matters of faith and morals.


    More in the Catechism...


    Capital Punishment
    2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.[67]

    2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
    "If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
    "Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.' [68]

  7. #87
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I can think of only one. The death penalty. Thou shall not kill. A true Catholic governor might feel he has to pardon every man sentenced to death in his state.
    If that was within the powers granted by the specific state, I honestly don't see the conflict.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Catholicism is the same, everywhere and for all time. What is true now, has always been true. In some respects, however, our understanding of that truth has been made more clear.
    The first two statements are wholly untrue.
    The third is very debatable.



    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


    If a politician ran for the position on the premise that they were a catholic and was voted in, then yes, they should follow their 'faith' when making decisions.

    If the politician just happened to be catholic, without being part of their platform, ran for and was elected to the position, then they have no business supplanting the voice of the people with that of their religious convictions.

  9. #89
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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Not every word he utters...

    The pope is a man--a very holy man, but he's a man. When he speaks "from the chair of Peter" (ex cathedra, as ludahai already mentioned) then it is with the authority granted him by Jesus where He said, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Only then is the pope speaking infallably on matters of faith and morals.


    More in the Catechism...


    Capital Punishment
    2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.[67]

    2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
    "If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
    "Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.' [68]
    Well, either way, it's certainly not the kind of punishment the church approves of at all. My point about the Governor commuting death sentences to life in prison still stands. As a Catholic, regardless of the fact that NOT acting would not make him a sinner, isn't it possible that he would feel the need to pardon the criminal, in keeping with the Catechism? It's entirely possible and even logical to me.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    The first two statements are wholly untrue.
    The third is very debatable.
    Is that on the authority of "Coolguy"? I guess the only appropriate response, then, is....coolz.

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