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Thread: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Still means Sodomy isn't illegal, and it still means that just because something is LEGAL, doesn't mean that everyone supports that.

    Pelosi has never had an abortion, nor encouraged others to have one. The fact you and others like to play God and condemn her as supporting abortion is fascinating to say the least.
    The standard is "material support" of procuring abortion. Her being in a position of voting on such things that legitimize through legislation the killing of human beings is "material support" of abortion and other legislation that is against the sanctity of life. So what if she never had an abortion or drove anyone to a clinic?...she, by her direct actions, aided such occurrences--she directly participated, through her power as a legislator, in millions of abortions that were made possible, in part, by her vote. THAT is material support.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    The standard is "material support" of procuring abortion. Her being in a position of voting on such things that legitimize through legislation the killing of human beings is "material support" of abortion and other legislation that is against the sanctity of life. So what if she never had an abortion or drove anyone to a clinic?...she, by her direct actions, aided such occurrences--she directly participated, through her power as a legislator, in millions of abortions that were made possible, in part, by her vote. THAT is material support.
    Not to mention the voting for the use of taxpayer dollars that are used to assist women terminate their unborn children.
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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    The standard is "material support" of procuring abortion. Her being in a position of voting on such things that legitimize through legislation the killing of human beings is "material support" of abortion and other legislation that is against the sanctity of life. So what if she never had an abortion or drove anyone to a clinic?...she, by her direct actions, aided such occurrences--she directly participated, through her power as a legislator, in millions of abortions that were made possible, in part, by her vote. THAT is material support.
    Voting for something to be a choice, does not mean you support it. No way you can spin that one. Homosexuality is also LEGAL, so does that mean you support it?

    It's despicable that the religious nutso right is trying to play this against her this way.

    The religious right won't be happy until a theocracy comes about.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Voting for something to be a choice, does not mean you support it.
    Voting "for" something doesn't mean you support it? Really?

    No way you can spin that one.
    If you don't think a vote is support for something I think YOUR head must be spinning...what is it if it is not voting in favor of something?

    Homosexuality is also LEGAL, so does that mean you support it?
    Homosexuality is not legislated. ???? Nor should it be--it's a preference. By that standard, vanilla ice cream is legal also. So? It doesn't relate a whit to something that actually IS legislated.


    It's despicable that the religious nutso right is trying to play this against her this way.

    The religious right won't be happy until a theocracy comes about.
    If your issue is a prejudice against religion, then just admit it rather than trying to criticise a religion for upholding its beliefs and wanting those who claim to be of that religion to actually represent the beliefs appropriately rather than using it for political advantage while ****ting on the sacred tenets.
    Last edited by Felicity; 03-07-09 at 11:20 AM.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Voting "for" something doesn't mean you support it? Really?
    Voting for something to be a choice (something the religious nutsos hate) does not mean you yourself support doing that action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Homosexuality is not legislated. ???? Nor should it be--it's a preference. By that standard, vanilla ice cream is legal also. So? It doesn't relate a whit to something that actually IS legislated.
    But it is against your precious bible. So you support it if it is legal by your logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    If your issue is a prejudice against religion, then just admit it rather than trying to criticise a religion for upholding its beliefs and wanting those who claim to be of that religion to actually represent the beliefs appropriately rather than using it for political advantage while ****ting on the sacred tenets.
    No my prejudice is against people that want to turn this country into a theocracy and take away choices of people.

    You hate people having a choice.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Voting for something to be a choice (something the religious nutsos hate) does not mean you yourself support doing that action.



    But it is against your precious bible. So you support it if it is legal by your logic.



    No my prejudice is against people that want to turn this country into a theocracy and take away choices of people.

    You hate people having a choice.
    If it is a choice, then where is my choice in the matter concerning such things as parental notification? Guess I DON'T have a choice there, now do I? So really it is not legislating "choice"--it is legislating legality of a particular action by particular people--and that action is the procurement of abortion.


    Ludahai pointed out, in the matter of how abortion is funded, I also don't have a CHOICE whether or not my money goes to it. I am FORCED by such legislation to monetarily support that which I would not if I had the CHOICE.


    The question you should ask yourself is:
    "Choice" to do WHAT?


    Finish the sentence: Choice to __________________________.
    Last edited by Felicity; 03-07-09 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Voting for something to be a choice, does not mean you support it. No way you can spin that one. Homosexuality is also LEGAL, so does that mean you support it?

    It's despicable that the religious nutso right is trying to play this against her this way.

    The religious right won't be happy until a theocracy comes about.
    The government has a duty to uphold basic rights. This is in no way religious so stop bashing religion.

    My argument against abortion:

    Of course, there is a bit of trouble when one's rights conflict another. Though, I thought this dilemma was solved with the end of slavery. The logic behind slavery, in my opinion, is comparable with abortion.(I hope me using slavery doesn't make me come across as insensitive,however, it is such a great comparison I must use it. )

    Ironically, the Democrats continue to use the same logic with abortion today as they used with slavery in the mid 1800s.

    Slavery argument: A man has a right to property. A slave is property. It is legally owned by it's master. It slave is not a human. A slave is not a person. It may be a human, but it doesn't look like me and is not as intelligent as I am. Henceforth, is not a person. Taking the slave away would impede on the it's owner's property rights and since slaves do not have rights since they are not people, the abolition of slavery is unjust.

    Pro-choice argument: A woman as a right to all her bodily functions. A fetus is part of a woman's body. It is a parasite consuming her precious resources. A fetus may be a human, but it doesn't look like me and is not intelligent as me. Henceforth, is not a person. Forcing a fetus to continue to reside in a woman's body would impede on here rights to reproduction and since a fetuses do not have rights since they are not people, abolishing abortion is unjust.

    Again, I apologize if you get offended by the slavery comparison. But the logic the logic is analogous to abortion.

    Both arguments both are based on the same false premises.

    1. A human is not necessarily a person.

    2.One human(mother/slaveholder) is greater than the other(fetus/slave). And his/her rights are greater than the other even if it is not fundamental.

    3. The right to property/reproduction is extremely important.
    __________________________________________________ ____________

    My argument against these premises.

    1. Person hood is a horribly arbitrary and unfair labeling. Society has always had a biased view towards individuals. From a few decades ago and back this view was against colored people(unfortunately it may still partly be the case). Now it is towards fetuses since they look like sacks of skin rather than cute laughing babies.

    This bias is oppressive to anyone that seems different. However, all humans capable of reaching life is an individual being and I believe that calling them non-people based on your bias is wrong. Therefore, all humans should be people.

    2. The preamble of the Declaration of Independence has two assertions,

    a. Everyone is equal.

    b. There are fundamental rights endowed by God.(God in a religious or non-religious interpretation) This includes life and liberty.

    The a pro/anti slave/choice argument is:

    Mother reproductive rights vs. Fetus's right to life
    and
    Master's property right vs. Slave's right to liberty.

    If everyone is equal according to assertion (a.) then the who's right is it factor is eliminated giving:

    Reproductive rights vs. Right to life
    and
    Property rights vs. Liberty

    3. Now we have our two choices life or reproduction. Property or Liberty.
    A have to insert some bias into my argument.

    There are many rights. But which rights unalienable? According to assertion (b) to the Declaration, these are life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    It should intuitively clear that some rights are more important than others.

    Life is more fundamental than reproduction rights.

    Liberty is more fundamental than property rights.



    In conclusion, slavery and abortion are unjust by impeding on fundemental rights on equal humans and government has a duty to create and enforce their interdiction .

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinu7 View Post
    There are many rights. But which rights unalienable? According to assertion (b) to the Declaration, these are life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    It should intuitively clear that some rights are more important than others.

    Life is more fundamental than reproduction rights.

    Liberty is more fundamental than property rights.
    .
    FORCING a woman to carry a baby to term is taking away liberty and the pursuit of happiness from the woman.

    If pro-life people want to abolish abortion, find, pay, and support ways to remove the fetus from the mother safely without her having to carry the baby full term.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    FORCING a woman to carry a baby to term is taking away liberty and the pursuit of happiness from the woman.
    You forget the inherent right that is taken away in an abortion--the right to life. You skip the preeminent right because it applies to the child killed and focus on liberty and happiness instead! In case no one informed you of this in your schooling days, the FULL text of the quote to which you refer is

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    Note the RIGHT listed first, and it is that RIGHT that is infringed upon when one is aborted.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You forget the inherent right that is taken away in an abortion--the right to life. You skip the preeminent right because it applies to the child killed and focus on liberty and happiness instead! In case no one informed you of this in your schooling days, the FULL text of the quote to which you refer is

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    Note the RIGHT listed first, and it is that RIGHT that is infringed upon when one is aborted.
    Much like children do not have full rights, neither does the fetus.

    I will always side with a woman's right to choose not to carry full term if she doesn't want to.

    FORCING her is taking away liberties as well.

    As I said before, if you don't like it, spend the money to research other ways so she doesn't have to carry it to full term or DEAL WITH IT.

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