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Thread: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Well, either way, it's certainly not the kind of punishment the church approves of at all.
    That is true.

    My point about the Governor commuting death sentences to life in prison still stands. As a Catholic, regardless of the fact that NOT acting would not make him a sinner, isn't it possible that he would feel the need to pardon the criminal, in keeping with the Catechism? It's entirely possible and even logical to me.
    He may feel that "need"--but, as a Catholic, he is not compelled to. I (unlike Ms. Pelosi dispite her claim) am an ardent Catholic and I might feel regret if my state was one that was a death penalty state and I was Governor...but I would not act against the laws of the land--that also would be wrong. We are to respect civil authority.

    The duties of citizens

    2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

    2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.


    and...

    2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is not to be confused in any way with the political community. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52
    Last edited by Felicity; 02-22-09 at 08:36 PM.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    That is true.


    He may feel that "need"--but, as a Catholic, he is not compelled to. I (unlike Ms. Pelosi dispite her claim) am an ardent Catholic and I might feel regret if my state was one that was a death penalty state and I was Governor...but I would not act against the laws of the land--that also would be wrong. We are to respect civil authority.

    The duties of citizens

    2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

    2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

    and...

    2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is not to be confused in any way with the political community. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52
    What is the source of the green text?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What is the source of the green text?
    sorry...I sourced it a few times already and I always put it in green because it's a big green book...

    Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

    the numbers refer to paragraphs.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    thanks .
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Is that on the authority of "Coolguy"? I guess the only appropriate response, then, is....coolz.

    If one has bothered to study the history of the catholic religion they know it isn't based on my own authority and also know the answer given in the following exchange is accurate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Catholicism is the same, everywhere and for all time. What is true now, has always been true. In some respects, however, our understanding of that truth has been made more clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    The first two statements are wholly untrue.
    The third is very debatable.

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Not if I don't believe he'll sand for my beliefs.
    Being part of a religion means you are supposed to abide by a set of beliefs


    And since the Catholic Church has no vote in our elections then it is not the duty of any politician Catholic or otherwise to follow what the church says or preaches.
    If they claim to be of a particular faith then it is their duty to abide by their faith. Voter should take this into account when voting for a politician just like you take into account whether or not a politician is a liberal or conservative.

    And if these politicians were elected on the premise that they were going to further the agendas of their constituents and not those an organization then you'd be completely right. But as it stands it is not the duty of any politician to further the agenda of the Catholic church.
    Politicians are elected on the premise that they have a certain set of beliefs/ideologies and whether or not those beliefs/ideologies closely match yours when you go vote for them. If I vote for someone who claims to be against illegal immigration, gay marriage, socialized medicine, globalization, outsourcing, and other issues I am for or against, then that is what I expect when I elect him to office. Catholics should call her out if she falsely pretending to be a catholic.




    Jebus H. Jimenez did you really need to repeat yourself three times? Do you not understand that it is not Nanci Pelosi's duty or for that matter that of any politician Catholic or otherwise to push the agenda of their church but that of their constituents irregardless of the faith/beliefs of these constituents?
    Do you not understand that if you prescribe to a faith then you are supposed to abide by that faiths beliefs,rules and etc, regardless if you are a politician or not, You do not flush your views down the toilet because you got elected to office? Of course you don't you are a atheist who thinks beliefs are something to be tossed under the bus. IF she claims to be a catholic then she should act as one and if not quit falsely claiming to be a catholic.

    If someone was running around claiming to be a liberal and they voted with conservatives on almost every issue and voted against liberal issues ,would say that individual should refrain from calling himself a liberal since he was not upholding liberal beliefs/ideology?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Do you know what we are asking the saints to do when we pray the litany of the saints?
    Don't you ask God for things when you pray to him? How is this any different than praying/asking a saint for something?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You ignore ... the fact that if everyone lived by the teachings of the Faith, there would be far fewer problems in the world than there are now.
    This could be said about most religions. Some more so than catholicism.
    If all had the same religion, and held to the tenets of that belief system,
    "there would be far fewer problems in the world than there are now".

    Should we debate which one would be the best?

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Don't you ask God for things when you pray to him? How is this any different than praying/asking a saint for something?
    Only God grants prayer requests--Catholics know who is God and who are friends in the Body of Christ. Catholics don't ask saints to "do something" except to pray on our behalf. You ask friends to pray for you? Catholics have friends in high places!

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    Re: Pope to US Speaker Pelosi: Reject abortion support

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    A politician's upbringing determines their moral compass, so I can partly accept what you're saying. However, when presented with a life or death situation that affects the entire country, and if the will of the people contradicts your Catholic faith, what do you do? Side with your faith?

    A politician whose faith overrides democratic decisions should not be a politician. I respect if you disagree, but secular institutions have been tainted by religion enough as it is.
    Secularism and athiesm, in the Western sense are as much metaphysical and spiritual platforms as Catholicism. Also you again treat representatives as delegates, they are elected to exercise judgement including against the current opinion polls and hold a Rousseauian "general will", potentially totalitarian view of democracy, society and the people.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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