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Are Obama's Policies Ushering in Era of Socialism? [EDIT]

THE definition according to whom?



Etherial is a Lib; don't waste your time with him.

Yes, listen to Khayembii, Arch. Do not converse with me as it will only be a waste of your time. Insulate yourself from opposing viewpoints and you will learn a great deal in life. Excellent advice.
 
Yes, listen to Khayembii, Arch. Do not converse with me as it will only be a waste of your time. Insulate yourself from opposing viewpoints and you will learn a great deal in life. Excellent advice.

"Socialist govts fail cuz they intervened in the economy" is not an opposing viewpoint. Insulating oneself from idiocy is excellent advice.
 
"Socialist govts fail cuz they intervened in the economy" is not an opposing viewpoint. Insulating oneself from idiocy is excellent advice.

Falsely attributing statements to me and insulting my intelligence are not considered legitimate debate tactics, but don't let that stop you from demonstrating your profound irrelevance and intellectual shortcomings.
 
Falsely attributing statements to me

I didn't:

You said:
Socializing sectors of the economy and funding class-specific welfare programs at the expense of others is bad; it doesn't matter how one goes about it or what end they seek.

and insulting my intelligence

I didn't; I was referring to your politics/economics.

are not considered legitimate debate tactics

I wasn't debating you. In fact, I wasn't even originally talking to you.

but don't let that stop you from demonstrating your profound irrelevance and intellectual shortcomings.

Cool story bro.
 
I'd much rather see y'all lightsaber fight til the death.

I recognize both sides of the equation, and I assume caution whenever I support one and blame the other one for the mistakes. I also recognize the danger associated with both.
 
Not only have you demonstrated your utter inability to effectively engage in a debate, but you've also managed to demonstrate your unwillingness to be honest. For instance:

"Socializing sectors of the economy and funding class-specific welfare programs at the expense of others is bad; it doesn't matter how one goes about it or what end they seek."

Does not equal...

"Socialist govts fail cuz they intervened in the economy."

You see, when you use quotes in order to attribute a statement to another person it is generally considered idiotic and amateurish to alter said statement in any way. It is especially idiotic to alter the statement in a way that fails to communicate the original point accurately. This is basic intellectual honesty, I'm afraid; perhaps you can incorporate the concept of "intellectual honesty" into your repertoire.

I didn't; I was referring to your politics/economics.

That's odd. I wasn't aware that one could hold idiotic beliefs and not be an idiot; very interesting, sir, very interesting indeed.

I wasn't debating you. In fact, I wasn't even originally talking to you.

No, you were talking about me, hence my investment in the conversation.

Cool story bro.

Nice try, bro.
 
Every dollar of government spending is a dollar stolen from the pocket of a productive citizen.
Government spending or federal government spending?
When consumption and investment spending go down, taxes and spending should both be cut.
You seem to think the government should stay out of the "free market" so why would you expect the government to change what it does when the "free market" does it's thing? IOW, if the two shouldn't be involved with each other then when FM consumption and investment spending go down it shouldn't matter to the government. Right?

The only spending government should ever engage in is for the basic service necessities it is expected to, and not one cent more.
OK, so what do you do for a living that doesn't use the public commons that was paid for and maintained by tax dollars. What do you do for a living?[/QUOTE]

The federal government runs your fire department?
You said government and did not specify state or federal. Your local fire department gets federal tax dollars. So lets just say you mean state government. OK, the state needs to collect taxes from you for the police and fire dept. along with a myriad of other services you take for granted. But without federal monies your state taxes will have to go up in order to cover the federal loss.

Transportation was 2% of the 2008 federal budget.
What was the federal budget for 2008?

In my opinion, not much, but per the Constitution there are a number of duties the federal government has. These are listed to exhaustion in the Constitution itself.
List them for discussion. You apparently know right where all of them are.

I'm sorry, are you trying to blame the housing bubble on something other than the massive government intervention in the economy that caused it? :shock:
What intervention was that?

Yes Obama is a Socialist. Yes his policies (esp social/economic/medical/etc) are Socialist.
So you don't think they are necessary?

Good news is Americans will only put up with it for so long before they tell the pusher to go to hell.
Isn't that what just happened in the last 2 elections?

Obama won't usher in an era of anything. He'll be out on his ass blaming whitey by 2012.
What a racist comment that was. Why was that necessary or relevant to the discussion?
 
I'd much rather see y'all lightsaber fight til the death.

I recognize both sides of the equation, and I assume caution whenever I support one and blame the other one for the mistakes. I also recognize the danger associated with both.

The only difference being that I've actually made an argument, whereas Khayembii is simply engaging in misrepresentation and ad hominem, AKA "trolling".

And I would crush him in a lightsaber-duel, the force is strong with this one...

DarthVaderROTSV1.jpg
 
Bush promoted socialism in the United States through neo-liberalization, and his methodologies catered to corporate socialism: bailouts, deregulation, increasing of free trade.
I won't blame Bush for all the economic problems, but he was one President in a string of several who sent the United States down a deregulatory path.
Who were the other presidents in that long string?

In order to patch the economy, further infusions of money are needed. The economy would head toward a depression anyway without a stimulus package, and people would be paying even more as inflation increases. So although the average joe is having to shoulder the cost of the stimulus package, it is actually a small amount compared to the decades of deficit-based spending that has caused the current situation.

In short, Americans now have to pay their bills.
You forget that the deficit was under control and had a projected surplus when Bush took office. But you are correct that we now have to pay for the bills run up in the last 8 years.
 
I think it's something a little more serious that socialism. It's FDR style socialism again, which was a wonderful mix of fascism and socialism. And when it comes to nationalization of private business, look out. I wouldn't be surprised to see the government try to grab that one either. We're in for a bad ride...too bad the other side didn't offer anything different.
Did we reap the benefits of what you label as fascism and socialism? What led to what you call the fascism and socialism of FDR?
 
Deregulation did not cause the economic problems.
It contributed to the problems by allowing unfettered greed. Can you name a time and place that laissez-faire capitalism has worked?


This doesn't even make sense. The porkulus package you support is exactly what will cause inflation and what will cause a depression.
In your untrained opinion.

You say Americans now have to pay their bills, yet all this "stimulus" garbage did was push a trillion dollars more debt onto future generations
Would it be worse without the stimulus? The vast majority of economists seem to think so.
 
It's an amazing thought process isn't it?
You steal from the private sector, the section that creates jobs and spends cash, you steal from them... and then run it through the government bureaucracy (losing money along the way), and then you let 500 politically motivated people allocate the money where they believe it is best spent. Propping up losers. Paying back buddies. Giving people who don't pay taxes money... welfare checks.

That ain't stimulus or plugging holes. Then again, I think those that voted for this bill are plugging about 300 million American holes.

Some realize it, some don't, some will never realize what damage they voted into office.

It's good the Republicans left the whole hole plugging operation to the Democrats. It's a start... (and then you hear something from the likes of Graham and you start losing hope all over again)

When and where has your vision of economics ever worked?
 
It contributed to the problems by allowing unfettered greed. Can you name a time and place that laissez-faire capitalism has worked?

It has to exist to work. I sure have seen though that manipulated capitalism hasn't worked

Would it be worse without the stimulus? The vast majority of economists seem to think so.
In your untrained opinion.
 
The only difference being that I've actually made an argument, whereas Khayembii is simply engaging in misrepresentation and ad hominem, AKA "trolling".

And I would crush him in a lightsaber-duel, the force is strong with this one...

DarthVaderROTSV1.jpg

hahahahahahahah

You're played by Hayden Christensen
 
When and where has your vision of economics ever worked?

"The recession of 1921-1923 proved to be the sharpest economic downturn since the emergence of the business cycle in the early 19th century, but it also was one of the shortest reversals. The government intervened to a greater extent, but wage rates were permitted to fall, and government expenditures and taxes were reduced. The recession was over in one year."

1921 recession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See, even when our ideas are only partially implemented they work wonders.
 
hahahahahahahah

You're played by Hayden Christensen

I'm strictly James Earl Jones. I broke ties with Star Wars after George Lucas decided money was more important than his creative integrity.
 
I'm strictly James Earl Jones. I broke ties with Star Wars after George Lucas decided money was more important than his creative integrity.

So you're just a voice? Who was paid like $1,000 for Star Wars?

More than I'll ever see :doh
 
Nice try but the theoretical differences between Communism/Populism/Socialism/Marxism/Leninism or whatever other "ism" you care to name are irrelevant and meaningless. In practice they all end up the same way, huge government bureaucracy, terrible economy, and limited civil liberties. What difference does the label make?
The problem is that you don't view society as a social compact and wish for a free-for-all economy. The only outcome for that is a wealthy merchant class and a poor servant class. Eventually, there is revolt because society needs socialism because we are social animals with empathy. Those without empathy only care about themselves.

What's your tax bracket right now? Would you freely give up the same amount to private charity and private businesses to get the same level of services?
 
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Anyone who lives in the United States knows what a socialist state looks like.
We've been this way since the republicans created the federal reserve at the turn of the century and it sisn't going to reverse so where are you going to move to?
 
Government spending or federal government spending?

You seem to think the government should stay out of the "free market" so why would you expect the government to change what it does when the "free market" does it's thing? IOW, if the two shouldn't be involved with each other then when FM consumption and investment spending go down it shouldn't matter to the government. Right?
Correct.

OK, so what do you do for a living that doesn't use the public commons that was paid for and maintained by tax dollars. What do you do for a living?
I work in the private sector and do not live off the government.


You said government and did not specify state or federal. Your local fire department gets federal tax dollars. So lets just say you mean state government. OK, the state needs to collect taxes from you for the police and fire dept. along with a myriad of other services you take for granted. But without federal monies your state taxes will have to go up in order to cover the federal loss.
And? My federal tax dollars go to subsidize the spending habits of other states. Why is fedgov in the money laundering business?

Any federal money going to fire departments is incredibly minuscule. Most fire departments are maintained primarily, if not entirely, by local and state taxes, and outside of urban areas, volunteer fire departments are the norm. Not even a dent in the federal budget.

With regard to state police, I've never had any need for them or any interaction with them at all besides the usual highway troopers. I don't see how I "take them for granted."

So your attempt to misrepresent the facts as though any budget cut would fall upon emergency services or road maintenance falls flat.


What was the federal budget for 2008?
Nearly $3 trillion, with socialist programs and imperialism taking the lion's share of it.


List them for discussion. You apparently know right where all of them are.
Don't be dense, google the U.S. Constitution if you are interested. Article 1, Section 8 covers the powers of Congress.


What intervention was that?

Of course the Federal Reserve created the initial bubble as it has been wont to do since its founding, and this was the main cause of the crisis, but the problems in the housing market in particular were also exacerbated by the reckless behavior of the government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac and by other government shenanigans like the Community Reinvestment Act.


Isn't that what just happened in the last 2 elections?
Americans elected Bush in 2004 and Bush in a brown costume in 2008...what could you possibly be referring to?
 
We've been this way since the republicans created the federal reserve at the turn of the century and it sisn't going to reverse so where are you going to move to?
Woodrow Wilson signed the bill and the Democrats controlled both houses when it passed; your party is hardly innocent.
 
It contributed to the problems by allowing unfettered greed. Can you name a time and place that laissez-faire capitalism has worked?
Already answered by someone.

In your untrained opinion.
Dismissing economic facts as "opinion" now?

If I said that water is wet, you'd have the same nonsensical response.


Would it be worse without the stimulus? The vast majority of economists seem to think so.
It WILL be much worse with Obama's porkulus package. This is agreed upon by all economists who haven't turned out to have been wrong about everything thus far.
 
The problem is that you don't view society as a social compact and wish for a free-for-all economy.

Incorrect. I am not an anarcho-capitalist. I believe in certain government regulations but only in a minimal fashion.

The only outcome for that is a wealthy merchant class and a poor servant class.

There are only two ways a wealthy merchant class can maintain their position in the market.

1. They are doing a good job.

-If someone stays in business and turns a profit it's because consumers prefer to transact with them. They have an efficient business model that provides consumers with a product or service at a price they find reasonable. Not only that, but they contribute positively to the economy by providing jobs and facilitating capital creation. This helps raise the standard of living for everyone who is willing to work hard. If the business deviates from their model a more efficient business model will supplant it.

2. Government favoritism.

-Inefficient business models are able to survive creative destruction via government regulation and intervention. They lobby the government for favors who subsequently intervenes and regulates on their behalf. This accomplishes three things:

a. It props up inefficient business models with tax payer money.

b. It stymies competition and hinders more efficient business models from entering the market.

c. Both.

The first example (doing a good job absent government favoritism) is a true free-market. The second example (government favoritism) is basically what we have now and what you are seeking to legitimize. The government does not intervene on your behalf, Slippy. They could care less about you. They are intervening on behalf of big business and special interests. Get the government out of the economy and allow creative destruction to work its magic.

Eventually, there is revolt because society needs socialism because we are social animals with empathy. Those without empathy only care about themselves.

I believe in individual compassion, not government mandated compassion. I will not forfeit my moral obligation to others by pawning it off on the government.

What's your tax bracket right now?

I'm poor. I go to school.

Would you freely give up the same amount to private charity and private businesses to get the same level of services?

It depends on what my needs were at the time. If I were financially secure I wouldn't hesitate to donate my money and time to worthy causes, but one could not expect me to forfeit my income if I truly needed it, oh wait, the government already does that.

As for forfeiting services I would only forfeit services that I derive no conceivable benefit from. I'm willing to pay taxes for national defense, roads, police, fire departments, and basic infrastructural necessities. What I'm not willing to pay for is someone's mortgage, healthcare, or welfare.
 
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