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Thread: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

  1. #21
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    [QUOTE][QUOTE=Ikari;1057926991]
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post

    Human is human. While humanity is no stranger to war and hatred, we're also not a static race.
    Utopian flim-flam.
    What we can hope for are nations run by governments elected by the people. Freedom. Looking at Africa alone, that's a lot of work. A few centuries worth, though a domino effect throughout that vast, diverse continent would be nice... also Utopian.

    Heartbroken and torn, nothing but pain and suffering. Our goal shouldn't be to spread that, but to alleviate it. If we learned nothing from these atrocities, then we are doomed to repeat them as nothing more than ignorant monkeys unable to see the world around them.
    Right.
    Sometimes war is necessary.
    Cleaning up the USSR after riding ourselves of The Axis might have saved us a lot of future problems.
    We would have saved tens of millions of lives from Vladivostok to St. Petersburg and all over the Far East.




    Why is it treasonous? You think that what the terrorists are doing is just and right.
    I think some actions by members of Congress would have had Lincoln sending them to the brig. Obama's "terrorizing civilians" was among the crap, but certainly not the most vile. Durban and Murtha top the lists and should have been sharing a cell.


    Yet your solution seems to be "prod them into action, then kill them all". I'm sure you make your god proud.
    It's not done for God.
    When someone declares war, then crush them into submission.
    Win.
    Make them submit to civilized society.

    I find it interesting you invoke your god in excuse for war and murder.
    I don't.
    I am not particularly religious.

    It was my understanding that the Christian god was not a god of war,
    He did say something about not being a coward. I think you'd find he would believe killing to defend yourself was just. I'm no religious scholar, it just makes sense, as does torture in a last ditch, dire, long bomb.

    Humans have a long history of war, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to engage in it or that we can't learn from it.
    We have to engage so long as there are those that seek our demise.
    We can learn from it by identifying threats, being prepared.
    Actually we should be more than prepared.
    We should be armed to the teeth as a deterrent and so we can fight a multifaceted battle. You know, like the one we face against the cowards.

    Your thought process is one that can only bring more war.
    I agree. But it is also the solution for turning one time foes into allies. Iraq. Afghanistan. Germany. Japan. Italy. All brought to freedom through the sword.

    You seem happy about it as well.
    Well, that's perverse.
    I'm a realist.
    People aim to kill and maim Americans. Westerners.
    Because of who we are and how we live.

    Nice, I believe we used that "logic" in the dark ages as well. Way to advance.
    Are we so far removed?
    People aim to kill and maim people because of their beliefs and way of life.
    People with a mentality from the 7th century.
    Did you know the first battle of the 21st century was lead on horseback?
    Know where?


    Defining morality through victory...really?
    I defined morality by being benevolent to the vanquished.
    That couldn;t have been too difficult to grasp? Non?


    Saved hundred of thousands of lives by taking hundred of thousands of lives. Doesn't sound like we netted out any.
    Come, come.
    The math equation isn't that difficult.
    Johnny sends 800,000 men to fight the Japs.
    175,000 are KIA.
    85,000 are injured.
    Millions are spent daily.

    OR

    Johnny sends two bombs and kills the inhabitants of two small cities.
    Cities which are not central to the functioning of the country.
    They're used as examples of what awaits Tokyo and Osaka.

    The enemy capitulates without one American GI of the 800,000 getting a scratch.

    How many American families have a father they would otherwise be missing?

    How many did the US net in saved lives and prevented injuries?


    What may have to be done isn't always right. You confuse this principle.
    You live in some fantasy society that awaits people in 1,000 years if they are lucky.
    You think because we were forced that it is right and it is just, you can be forced to do evil and partake in immoral acts. War is such an evil.

    War is horrible, war is evil.
    And sometimes necessary.
    Unless you like getting on your knees five times a day.
    You might have made a terrific member of the NSDAP.
    You seem willing to succumb to evil.

    Perhaps my moral code is a little more steadfast than your own.
    No.
    I think it's immoral to have an enemy roll your family, friends and neighbors.
    I think it's immoral not to fight an enemy that wants to tear your heart out.
    OK, they wouldn't do that. They'd only cut off your head.

    Very moral of you.
    Last edited by zimmer; 02-16-09 at 02:46 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  2. #22
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    [QUOTE=zimmer;1057927106][QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Utopian flim-flam.
    What we can hope for are nations run by governments elected by the people. Freedom. Looking at Africa alone, that's a lot of work. A few centuries worth, though a domino effect throughout that vast, diverse continent would be nice... also Utopian.
    That's not utopian anything, it's measured fact. Human is human, and humanity is not a static race. There's nothing "utopian" about that, it's just the way nature programed us.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Right.
    Sometimes war is necessary.
    Cleaning up the USSR after riding ourselves of The Axis might have saved us a lot of future problems.
    We would have saved tens of millions of lives from Vladivostok to St. Petersburg and all over the Far East.
    Sometimes war is necessary, but that doesn't make war right. War is still an evil. Again, you seem to have a hard time with this concept. Just because you're forced into something doesn't make your actions right or just. You can be forced into evil. War is evil, there is no bones about it. Maybe it is necessary, but don't pretend it to be something else, and don't sit there and think we're so awesome for being able to kill another side better. The true measure of our worth is not in destruction, but in creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I think some actions by members of Congress would have had Lincoln sending them to the brig. Obama's "terrorizing civilians" was among the crap, but certainly not the most vile. Durban and Murtha top the lists and should have been sharing a cell.
    So basically people who disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It's not done for God.
    When someone declares war, then crush them into submission.
    Win.
    Make them submit to civilized society.
    Yet your actions are not quite civilized, so who is submitting to who?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I don't.
    I am not particularly religious.
    Nor am I, but I do know right from wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    He did say something about not being a coward. I think you'd find he would believe killing to defend yourself was just. I'm no religious scholar, it just makes sense, as does torture in a last ditch, dire, long bomb.
    Pretty sure he said to not judge, to love thy neighbor, to turn the other cheek. Y'all have pretty interesting interpretations and you make your gods fit whatever you want at the time. IMO, on the base of religious lesson Christianity is one of the hardest to live up to and I believe many really fail at it. It's a religion of peace, forgiveness, and pacifism at heart; and those qualities are hard to live up to when you fill your heart with hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    We have to engage so long as there are those that seek our demise.
    We can learn from it by identifying threats, being prepared.
    Actually we should be more than prepared.
    We should be armed to the teeth as a deterrent and so we can fight a multifaceted battle. You know, like the one we face against the cowards.
    Then you only perpetuate a cycle. I don't know if you can see that you are engaging in behavior you are rallying against. The other side does X, so you have to do X. We are right in doing X because the other side is doing X. You're doing the same thing, you're going to seek the demise of the other side because they seek your demise. We should be armed to the teeth because the other side is armed to the teeth. It's a morality of hypocrisy and one that will only cause the circle to keep going. It's short sighted tomfoolery and nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I agree. But it is also the solution for turning one time foes into allies. Iraq. Afghanistan. Germany. Japan. Italy. All brought to freedom through the sword.
    Bzzt. Germany had democracy before, it would have had it again regardless. Same with Italy. The people of Japan had to accept the government they created otherwise that government wouldn't have stood. So it's more their power than ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Well, that's perverse.
    I'm a realist.
    People aim to kill and maim Americans. Westerners.
    Because of who we are and how we live.
    BS. This is the point. You are so blind in your hatred that you won't look at the whole problem. "I'm from Buenos Aires and I say 'Kill them all' ". All tough guy like. But you've started a circle of death and destruction and happily keep that circle going and in the end you breed exactly what you are fighting against. It's idiotic in the end, a pointless and never ending endeavor. They don'thate us because of who we are. They hate us because we've ****ed with their **** for 50+ years. You think we can go anywhere we want, do whatever we want, take whatever we want without consequence? Foolishness. The people over there didn't wake up one day and say "Hey, Akbar, you know who sucks....America!". You only get that when people mess with your ****, and the West as a whole has been doing it for quite some time. It's pure idiocy to say they hate us for who we are and how we live. They hate us for our freedom! That's government propaganda BS eaten up by those whom love war and death. We are not isolated, we do not live in vacuum. Our actions have consequence, but damn if anyone brings that up if they aren't a traitor that needs to be thrown in jail. Pretend we ain't ever done nothing wrong or given cause to be hated. But your mentality would bring you to war against the US had you been born in the Middle East. That's the irony, hypocrisy, and waffling of your moral compass.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Are we so far removed?
    People aim to kill and maim people because of their beliefs and way of life.
    People with a mentality from the 7th century.
    Did you know the first battle of the 21st century was lead on horseback?
    Know where?
    People kill and maim because that's what they've been taught. Or because others mess with their stuff. But what we've done in the past does not define in full our future. Humans learn and grow, our base knowledge grows, our societies grow. We are not a stagnate race, in the past we were primitive and stupid and fought a lot like all primitive and stupid things. While we may not be able to fully do away with war for it's near impossible to do away with in total stupid, we can certainly learn how to break your cycle; to decrease war and focus more on creation than destruction. Humanity has that potential, we just need the resolve to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I defined morality by being benevolent to the vanquished.
    That couldn;t have been too difficult to grasp? Non?
    You define your morality by victor and by what's being done to you. It's a very childish sense of morality. If something is done to you it's wrong, if you do the same thing to someone else it's right. It's a position with zero empathy. and while it's blazingly obvious to others that if X is wrong, it's wrong no matter who does it; you don't see it that way. You are X is wrong if done to me but right if I do it to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Come, come.
    The math equation isn't that difficult.
    Johnny sends 800,000 men to fight the Japs.
    175,000 are KIA.
    85,000 are injured.
    Millions are spent daily.

    OR

    Johnny sends two bombs and kills the inhabitants of two small cities.
    Cities which are not central to the functioning of the country.
    They're used as examples of what awaits Tokyo and Osaka.
    Tokyo was already destroyed at that point. Have you not been paying attention? The firebombing of Tokyo that killed more that 100,000 civilians. They aren't examples to either Tokyo and Osaka, we'd already taken care of most of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    The enemy capitulates without one American GI of the 800,000 getting a scratch.

    How many American families have a father they would otherwise be missing?

    How many did the US net in saved lives and prevented injuries?
    How many others did you kill, how many Japanese families are destroyed IN TOTAL? How much pain and suffering did you inflict upon a people. Governments come and go, and they make decisions and the people pay for them. But this is the point. You think the pain and suffering of others is ok so long as you aren't the on in pain or suffering. Against us bad, by us good. Wishy washy, useless morals. I say maybe we were forced to do what we did and had to do so to end this war. But what we did wasn't good and we should understand that it was a bad thing to do and we should look for ways to avoid it. You're looking for ways to do it again, you don't learn and you don't see. Nature gave us complex brain capable of all sorts of abstract thought, engage it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You live in some fantasy society that awaits people in 1,000 years if they are lucky.
    I live in no fantasy world. I want to build something different, one that doesn't necessarily go to war as first response. That's your world and nothing gets accomplished in such a hell hole. You can't understand my point because you are blind to it. You make it as if I am saying never war, but those aren't my words. I am a pacifist in that I think war is a last resort. It doesn't say no war, it says war is bad and thus should be used when all other options are dry. War is evil, you should be drug kicking and screaming into it and crawling and clawing your way out of it as soon as possible. It brings nothing but pain and suffering to all who engage in it regardless of side.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    And sometimes necessary.
    Unless you like getting on your knees five times a day.
    You might have made a terrific member of the NSDAP.
    You seem willing to succumb to evil.
    It's the opposite of what you say, I'm willing to fight evil. Killing isn't right, it's not a good action, it is an evil action. Regardless of what justification you think you have, even if you have no choice, it's still immoral. If forced to do immoral things, one should question what got them to that point and to try to avoid that in the future. Learn from the mistakes and move forward, that is the human way. Muslims don't hate us because we are who we are. They hate us because they too have people like you, and the lot of you keep this cycle of hate and destruction rolling. Somewhere in the past this circle started up, and we haven't learned enough to let it go.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    No.
    I think it's immoral to have an enemy roll your family, friends and neighbors.
    I think it's immoral not to fight an enemy that wants to tear your heart out.
    OK, they wouldn't do that. They'd only cut off your head.
    Yet you think it's perfectly moral to do this to others. Kill and destroy. Roll over other's family and friends and neighbors. Fight them and tear their heart out. So long as we're doing it it's moral, if they're doing it then it's immoral. That is why your morality is useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Very moral of you.
    It is, I understand evil and its uses and why it's not ok to kill people. That we are all people in the end. If we have to kill, it's not a jubilant time, it's not something to brag about; it's done with heavy heart and resolve to avoid as much as possible repeating it in the future.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #23
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Ikari, let me start with a bit that's down towards the bottom of the thread

    It's pure idiocy to say they hate us for who we are and how we live.
    Maybe idiocy for you, but it's true.

    People kill and maim because that's what they've been taught.
    Damn, I missed that class in school. Was it before lunch or after?

    Or because others mess with their stuff.
    Yeah, Carlin warned me about this.
    I musta smoked one too many.
    Sorry.
    I forgot.
    I'll be sure not to touch their "stuff" next time.
    YouTube - George Carlin Talks About "Stuff"

    [QUOTE=Ikari;1057927195][QUOTE=zimmer;1057927106][QUOTE]

    That's not utopian anything, it's measured fact. Human is human, and humanity is not a static race. There's nothing "utopian" about that, it's just the way nature programed us.
    We are programmed for peace? Then why all the war?
    Some are programmed for peace, some for murder, some for compassion, and all to different degrees.
    We are individuals, not some form of ameobic collective.


    Sometimes war is necessary, but that doesn't make war right. War is still an evil. Again, you seem to have a hard time with this concept.
    War is right when it is necessary. Otherwise you have the masses either enslaved or dead. Like what happened when we pulled out of Vietnam.

    Just because you're forced into something doesn't make your actions right or just.
    Oh yes it does. Not only just but noble.

    War is evil, there is no bones about it.
    War is hell. Evil?

    Maybe it is necessary, but don't pretend it to be something else, and don't sit there and think we're so awesome for being able to kill another side better.
    I don't sit in awe, but thinking about what we can do is pretty awesome. Yet we are benevolent.

    Nor am I, but I do know right from wrong.
    Perhaps. But it seems you are challenged with moral and amoral.

    Pretty sure he said to not judge, to love thy neighbor, to turn the other cheek.
    Pretty sure isn't good enough. I do believe there is something in there about not being a coward.

    Christianity is one of the hardest to live up to and I believe many really fail at it.
    We all fail at it as we are human. Mere flesh and blood.

    It's a religion of peace, forgiveness, and pacifism at heart; and those qualities are hard to live up to when you fill your heart with hate.
    I'm not a guy filled with "hate". But when we are attacked, when our way of life and our close friends are in jeopardy, then we should beat the aggressor into submission.

    The go home.

    We did something along these lines in Afghanistan. We supplied arms, let the locals do the heavy lifting, and then left them alone afterwards. The we get smacked for not doing more. In other areas we stick around and people want us to leave.

    Then you only perpetuate a cycle.
    Appeasement is what perpetuates the cycle. Only when someone dominates the other is there peace. Japan, Germany, Italy all come to mind. Iraq and Afghanistan too.

    I don't know if you can see that you are engaging in behavior you are rallying against. The other side does X, so you have to do X. We are right in doing X because the other side is doing X.
    No, no, no. If the other side is doing "x", I want our side to do "x" to the power of 10.

    We should be armed to the teeth because the other side is armed to the teeth. It's a morality of hypocrisy and one that will only cause the circle to keep going. It's short sighted tomfoolery and nothing more.
    Yes. We should be prepared to avenge any and all enemies that think they can take us on.

    Your philosophy is one of pacifism. It ensures you will be ripe for the picking. In a world of Nature, the weak get it in the neck first.

    Bzzt. Germany had democracy before, it would have had it again regardless. Same with Italy.
    Perhaps, but at what cost? Slavery, oppression, control, loss of free speech, and cultural decay.

    As I stated earlier, you could have been a model brown shirt. A Peace Keeper for the Third Reich.

    The people of Japan had to accept the government they created otherwise that government wouldn't have stood. So it's more their power than ours.
    They were defeated, denounced a God and got a government. Through submission to a greater military power did this occur.

    BS. This is the point. You are so blind in your hatred that you won't look at the whole problem.
    I have no hate.
    I don't walk around hating.
    I dislike socialism with a passion, but I don't hate the people. I think they're morons that's all.

    But you've started a circle of death and destruction and happily keep that circle going and in the end you breed exactly what you are fighting against.
    I've started nothing.
    I support defensive measures.
    If it requires our best men and women engaging in battle, they and the president can usually count on my full support.

    It's idiotic in the end, a pointless and never ending endeavor.
    The point is survival.
    The point is defending freedom.

    You think we can go anywhere we want, do whatever we want, take whatever we want without consequence? Foolishness.
    Did we invade Kanuckistan to the north? Are you one of the escapees?

    The people over there didn't wake up one day and say "Hey, Akbar, you know who sucks....America!". You only get that when people mess with your ****, and the West as a whole has been doing it for quite some time.
    Akbar & Co. (whoever he is) are as logical as Hitler and his followers.

    It's pure idiocy to say they hate us for who we are and how we live.
    Maybe idiocy for you, but it's true.

    People kill and maim because that's what they've been taught.
    Damn, I missed that class in school. Was it before lunch or after?

    Or because others mess with their stuff.
    Yeah, Carlin warned me about this.
    I musta smoked one too many.
    Sorry.
    I forgot.
    I'll be sure not to touch their "stuff" next time.
    YouTube - George Carlin Talks About "Stuff"


    But what we've done in the past does not define in full our future. Humans learn and grow, our base knowledge grows, our societies grow.
    True.
    That's how we got the A-bomb, the MOAB, the B1 bomber, patriot missile system.
    I love knowledge, especially when our enemies are still trying to steal it 30-years after the fact.

    We are not a stagnate race
    That's good because I was thinking that smelly air was the next village.
    in the past we were primitive and stupid and fought a lot like all primitive and stupid things. While we may not be able to fully do away with war for it's near impossible to do away with in total stupid, we can certainly learn how to break your cycle; to decrease war and focus more on creation than destruction. Humanity has that potential, we just need the resolve to do it.
    I think Obama needs you.
    Right now.
    It sounds like you have the key to unleash World Peace, and deny us those great Miss America Pageant answers.
    I think he could make you The Tzar of Peace.
    You seem to have it all figured out.
    Once you tell him what is what he'll send you over to talk with I'minaJihad, Hamas and Hezbollah.
    BUT... before that, he'll have you go to Pakistan and Afghanistan to sort out the matters there.
    I can see it now:

    IKARI BRINGS WORLD PEACE

    New and Improved System


    You define your morality by victor and by what's being done to you.
    I define victory by victory.
    Evil men can and have won too.

    It's a very childish sense of morality.
    Did you know it's racist to speak about Obama's Foreign and Domestic Policy that way?

    Tokyo was already destroyed at that point. Have you not been paying attention? The firebombing of Tokyo that killed more that 100,000 civilians.
    There was still a lot of people to kill and infrastructure to destroy if so desired. Only half the city was destroyed.

    How much pain and suffering did you inflict upon a people.
    When it comes to ours or theirs... they can have all the pain and suffering. They asked for a war... they get it.

    You think the pain and suffering of others is ok so long as you aren't the on in pain or suffering.
    NO.
    I wish nobody would have to endure pain, suffering or war.
    That isn't the reality of life, and so long as there are people who seek the destruction of, or seek to dominate through militaristic force, then I want THEM to suffer until they submit.
    I want Victory and then to get on with a peaceful life for the soldiers, and the nation... of both countries.


    Against us bad, by us good. Wishy washy, useless morals.
    ?
    Pardon?
    I'm skating through this and it seems this is contradictory to previous posts, but I can't say I'm surprised.

    Nature gave us complex brain capable of all sorts of abstract thought, engage it.
    Then use it.
    Self defense is not an exotic topic.
    Neville Chamberlain wasn't that long ago.
    Nor was Bill Clinton.

    Feast on that for a few minutes.

    I live in no fantasy world. I want to build something different, one that doesn't necessarily go to war as first response.
    You world isn't fantasy, it's beyond fantasy.
    Sorry. I call 'em as I see 'em.

    You can't understand my point because you are blind to it.
    I understand it loud and clear.
    It's dangerous.
    Naive.
    Utopian.

    You make it as if I am saying never war, but those aren't my words. I am a pacifist in that I think war is a last resort.
    Well we agree on a few things here.

    You are a pacifist.
    And you entire posts are in defense of NO WAR/
    Now this?

    I think war should be a last resort.
    (Now ask me about the "pre-emptive" strike in Iraq...)


    It's the opposite of what you say, I'm willing to fight evil. Killing isn't right, it's not a good action, it is an evil action. Regardless of what justification you think you have, even if you have no choice, it's still immoral. If forced to do immoral things, one should question what got them to that point and to try to avoid that in the future. Learn from the mistakes and move forward, that is the human way. Muslims don't hate us because we are who we are. They hate us because they too have people like you, and the lot of you keep this cycle of hate and destruction rolling. Somewhere in the past this circle started up, and we haven't learned enough to let it go.



    Yet you think it's perfectly moral to do this to others.
    I've said America is a great country because it is BENEVOLENT.
    We could control the world, or could have.
    All it would take is the launch of a few nukes.


    Kill and destroy. Roll over other's family and friends and neighbors.
    Fight them and tear their heart out. So long as we're doing it it's moral, if they're doing it then it's immoral. That is why your morality is useless.
    I think you're confused a lot.
    War isn't immoral if an enemy has engaged you WHICH IS WHAT I'VE SAID ALL ALONG.

    I've said it's immoral not to fight back.

    And if you engage in war, then WIN.
    The faster the better.

    Ikari... I think you've got some thinking to do.
    Last edited by zimmer; 02-19-09 at 09:14 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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