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Thread: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. It was war and it was a horrible situation to be in. Certain things had to be done, but being so gleeful over what we would 100% call acts of terrorism now I'm not so sure is ok.
    No dismissal.
    Just stating fact.

    The lesson here is... if you're going to engage in war... play all out to win.
    Make the enemy pay dearly and often until they submit.

    It's definitely something we should learn from, it's a horrible thing to have had to do and we should work as hard as possible to avoid future problems which could lead to such actions.
    Agree. Lessons of history should be learned in all their gore. Not to create a batch of pacifists, but to illustrate the cost of ignoring clear warnings.

    This was not one of the highlights of our country's distinguished existence. War or no, this is definitely a blight upon our record.
    Disagree. No blight. We saved lives, a mass of American lives with these actions.
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    god dammit, skinhead and nazi are not synonyms.

    many of the original skinheads were in fact black.

    why can't the media make the barest attempt to ****ing wiki skinhead and see what the subculture actually is.
    Who thinks that Hitler would have tolerated skinheads? I assure you they would all be in labor camps.
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    that's irrelevant to whether or not all skinheads or the skinhead subculture is legitimately racist, extremist, or rightwing, which it is not.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    No dismissal.
    Just stating fact.
    That's fine, but there doesn't seem to be any remorse on your part which I find sad considering the number of civilians we took out.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    The lesson here is... if you're going to engage in war... play all out to win.
    Make the enemy pay dearly and often until they submit.
    So you agree with the terrorists, their actions, even 9/11 because if they're gonna fight us, they need to engage all out to win and do whatever they can to make us pay dearly and submit. K.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Agree. Lessons of history should be learned in all their gore. Not to create a batch of pacifists, but to illustrate the cost of ignoring clear warnings.
    Should get us to understand the sanctity of human life. It should create a bunch of pacifists. We should look at this and say "wow, the loss of life and method of death was so grotesque, so inhuman that we should strive to avoid this at all costs in the future". If you're "lesson" from this is "my way or the highway", then you haven't learned a damned thing from this travesty against mankind.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Disagree. No blight. We saved lives, a mass of American lives with these actions.
    This isn't a feather in our cap. You can make the point that maybe this horrible act had to be done. It doesn't make it just or right or a good thing or something to celebrate (as you seem to be doing). It's a blight, it's a horrible course of action taken against our fellow man and regardless of reason it was not a good thing to do. It doesn't matter how much we had to do it, it doesn't make it a good thing. It was still horrible, we killed well over 100,000 civilians in the firebombing of Tokyo and it is something we should do our damnedest not to have to repeat. This was certainly a black eye.
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. It was war and it was a horrible situation to be in. Certain things had to be done, but being so gleeful over what we would 100% call acts of terrorism now I'm not so sure is ok. It's definitely something we should learn from, it's a horrible thing to have had to do and we should work as hard as possible to avoid future problems which could lead to such actions. This was not one of the highlights of our country's distinguished existence. War or no, this is definitely a blight upon our record.
    I would not necessarily call it a blight on our record, since there were no conventions against bombing civilians at that time. I would like to think that, because of WWII, civilized nations, such as the US, took a step back and rethought how to fight a war. Naturally, you want to go after infrastructure so that war components cannot be manufactured by the enemy, but you want to try as best as possible to limit civilian casualties because that is the moral thing to do. I believe that America, for the most part, has done well. Nothing is perfect, and there are still civilian casualties, but nothing like the wanton death and destruction that occurred during WWII.

    Some people might bring up Vietnam and Iraq to try and make a point that America has not abided by what it preaches, but I believe those are exceptions. When you occupy a nation, and there is resistance, it is difficult to tell the difference between civilians and the enemy. In spite of the problems in Iraq, I still believe that American forces, as a whole, have done their best in trying to limit civilian casualties. As for the Iraq War itself, and whether or not it was right to go wage a war that resulted in civilian deaths, that is a topic for another thread, and does not belong in this one.
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    no, seriously what did they have for breakfast. Their march is not nearly as important.

    I just would like to know what kind of breakfast one has when they decide that they are going to go stand-outside in support of racism.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I would not necessarily call it a blight on our record, since there were no conventions against bombing civilians at that time. I would like to think that, because of WWII, civilized nations, such as the US, took a step back and rethought how to fight a war. Naturally, you want to go after infrastructure so that war components cannot be manufactured by the enemy, but you want to try as best as possible to limit civilian casualties because that is the moral thing to do. I believe that America, for the most part, has done well. Nothing is perfect, and there are still civilian casualties, but nothing like the wanton death and destruction that occurred during WWII.
    This is exactly my point though. This is the lesson which needs to be learned. When I call it a blight, I'm not saying there wasn't reason for the action or that it was something we absolutely shouldn't have done. I do so because while there are a lot of gray's in morality, there is a base which is solid rock. Killing is at that base, we need to understand the severity of taking another human's life. What that means and the consequences thereof. Maybe you're forced to, maybe you have no other choice; but that doesn't make the action good.

    All you can do is learn from that situation and try to avoid it in the future. We firebombed a lot of cities and it wasn't good, we should do our best to avoid those situations in the future. This isn't a "my way or the highway" sort of thing. A "you'd better listen to us or we'll find horrible ways to kill you and do it!" sort of thing. This is an "OMG, I can't believe we had to do that! Let's try to avoid doing that again" sort of thing. There are certain morals which are absolute, you may find yourself in a situation in which you must violate them, but if you do then you should learn from the situation enough to do your best from having to do so again.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I would not necessarily call it a blight on our record, since there were no conventions against bombing civilians at that time.
    Except common decency. There have always been unspoken laws which promote a bit of honor within the troops (however, I must admit that some [like the Crusader's "when the enemy drops his blade, let him pick it up] are a bit silly, and a good way to lose to [Saladin's] armies). I do understand though that when gloves are off, gloves are off. However, I do believe it is better to hold decency and honor as a standard for all soldiers, regardless of how the enemy is fighting.

    I would like to think that, because of WWII, civilized nations, such as the US, took a step back and rethought how to fight a war.
    Of course! WWI showed the world what gases could do. They were immediately barred from use. I am not sure if it was international legislation or just a common agreement.

    Naturally, you want to go after infrastructure so that war components cannot be manufactured by the enemy, but you want to try as best as possible to limit civilian casualties because that is the moral thing to do.
    One of the problems with this is that the citizens of Nazi Germany were the infrastructure, well, them and the captives. If you are going to destroy the infrastructure, with some military exceptions like the Luftwaffe (Hitler, would not allow ordinaries to tinker with their bells).
    I believe that America, for the most part, has done well. Nothing is perfect, and there are still civilian casualties, but nothing like the wanton death and destruction that occurred during WWII.
    I guess that depends on how you define "doing well during war". In retrospect, we are the only nation to ever use an atomic weapon-- twice.
    I do agree that all gloves were off, and it was the most sane move; Imperial Japan would have taken millions of lives before it gave up due to attrition.

    Some people might bring up Vietnam and Iraq to try and make a point that America has not abided by what it preaches, but I believe those are exceptions. When you occupy a nation, and there is resistance, it is difficult to tell the difference between civilians and the enemy. In spite of the problems in Iraq, I still believe that American forces, as a whole, have done their best in trying to limit civilian casualties. As for the Iraq War itself, and whether or not it was right to go wage a war that resulted in civilian deaths, that is a topic for another thread, and does not belong in this one.
    My problem is not with the military in Iraq having a hard time distinguishing between civilian and insurgents, mine lies with contractors given the responsibility to distinguish; Mercenaries should not comprise any amount oProxy-Connection: keep-alive
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    Last edited by Arch Enemy; 02-16-09 at 01:16 PM.
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's fine, but there doesn't seem to be any remorse on your part which I find sad considering the number of civilians we took out.
    I can't say no remorse for the vanquished, but there isn't a lot.
    Their leaders brought it unto their countries.
    Feelings about these pages of history come in waves concerning the vanquished. Sometimes anger, sometimes sympathy.

    My Grandfather lead men into battle and lost some friends.
    These people secured my freedom. If they hadn't, I'd be speaking fluent Russian.
    My sympathies are high for the Allied Troops and their families that died in a second European war... hell... all wars. Seeing the oceans of crosses in France reaches deep. Tremendously deep. Hearing the stories of vets reaches deep.

    So you agree with the terrorists, their actions, even 9/11 because if they're gonna fight us, they need to engage all out to win and do whatever they can to make us pay dearly and submit. K.
    I agree, and believe the terrorists are going all out. Like ducks in the water, you can't see their orange-red legs moving, but the are swimming along... towards their goals.

    It's why I believe the behavior of democrats is treasonous in many instances. Aiding and abetting our enemies while at war.

    We don't have a clue what threats we faced down, except to know they are active because we've seen them London. Madrid. Tunisia. Bali. Africa. NY.
    Just to list a few.

    Iran is getting the Ultimate Weapon, and will be able to create all manner of havoc. I don't expect a bomb on a missile, but dirty stuff. They have an ample supply of delivery systems to get the job done too.

    We should look at this and say "wow, the loss of life and method of death was so grotesque, so inhuman that we should strive to avoid this at all costs in the future".
    It would be nice to avoid it, but reality says otherwise.
    I don't live in the fantasy world... thank God.

    All of human history we've been at war... somewhere.
    To date we've cleaned up most of Europe and Japan.
    Now it looks like our next battle is with Islamofascists that hide amongst civilians.

    How do you engage an opponent that sees glory in death?
    Kill them by the ocean liner full.
    Then when they see no point, can you civilize them.


    This isn't a feather in our cap.
    It is and in many ways.
    We had the weaponry to make the whole world kneel before us and beg for mercy.
    We're not that kind of people though.
    We instead helped those we vanquished rebuild their societies.
    It's a huge feather.
    We are magnanimous victors.

    You can make the point that maybe this horrible act had to be done. It doesn't make it just or right or a good thing
    It was right. Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    It ended the war, saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

    It's a blight, it's a horrible course of action taken against our fellow man and regardless of reason it was not a good thing to do.
    War is horrible, but...
    ...Sorry... It was the right action to take.

    Not doing it would have been scandalous.
    I have no proof but I believe its horrors illustrated to our enemies they don't want to engage us or our Japanese, Korean or European allies.
    Last edited by zimmer; 02-16-09 at 01:10 PM.
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    Re: Skinheads, Neo-Nazis Draw Fury at Dresden 1945 ‘Mourning March’

    [QUOTE=zimmer;1057926949]
    I can't say no remorse for the vanquished, but there isn't a lot.
    Their leaders brought it unto their countries.
    Feelings about these pages of history come in waves concerning the vanquished. Sometimes anger, sometimes sympathy.

    My Grandfather lead men into battle and lost some friends.
    These people secured my freedom. If they hadn't, I'd be speaking fluent Russian.
    My sympathies are high for the Allied Troops and their families that died in a second European war... hell... all wars. Seeing the oceans of crosses in France reaches deep. Tremendously deep. Hearing the stories of vets reaches deep.
    Human is human. While humanity is no stranger to war and hatred, we're also not a static race. We change and we learn and we grow; and we should be moving into a more inclusive race. People may be different, but they're still people in the end. My sympathy is for all humans. If our government did something stupid and horrible and got us into something in which the enemy bombed civilians and tried to kill as many of us as possible and create an air of fear; I would mourn those on our side that died. I wouldn't think it a good situation or that we as civilians should be targeted. It would break my heart to see my friends and family murdered by another group pissed at something my government did. Those families in Japan and Germany...they felt the same way. Heartbroken and torn, nothing but pain and suffering. Our goal shouldn't be to spread that, but to alleviate it. If we learned nothing from these atrocities, then we are doomed to repeat them as nothing more than ignorant monkeys unable to see the world around them. Might as well climb back into the trees and start eating bananas; for ignorance spits in the face of this intellect we've gained through nature. It's a slap in the face to your god as well if you actually believe in one.


    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I agree, and believe the terrorists are going all out. Like ducks in the water, you can't see their orange-red legs moving, but the are swimming along... towards their goals.

    It's why I believe the behavior of democrats is treasonous in many instances. Aiding and abetting our enemies while at war.
    Why is it treasonous? You think that what the terrorists are doing is just and right.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    We don't have a clue what threats we faced down, except to know they are active because we've seen them London. Madrid. Tunisia. Bali. Africa. NY.
    Just to list a few.

    Iran is getting the Ultimate Weapon, and will be able to create all manner of havoc. I don't expect a bomb on a missile, but dirty stuff. They have an ample supply of delivery systems to get the job done too.
    Yet your solution seems to be "prod them into action, then kill them all". I'm sure you make your god proud.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It would be nice to avoid it, but reality says otherwise.
    I don't live in the fantasy world... thank God.
    I find it interesting you invoke your god in excuse for war and murder. It was my understanding that the Christian god was not a god of war, but one of peace and forgiveness; to faults if need be. Jesus accepted death, he had the power to do something about it, he could have saved his own skin; he didn't. Instead of making excuses for killing, maybe you should pray to that god of yours for strength, patience, and understanding to deal with other people and do your best to stay away from killing.

    Humans have a long history of war, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to engage in it or that we can't learn from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    All of human history we've been at war... somewhere.
    To date we've cleaned up most of Europe and Japan.
    Now it looks like our next battle is with Islamofascists that hide amongst civilians.
    Humanity is not stagnant, we always move forward. Your thought process is one that can only bring more war. You seem happy about it as well. Death and destruction, pain and suffering, bring it to your enemy and rejoice in their cries and screams of pain and terror. You continue a cycle and use history as an excuse, thank your god that you are willing to engage in war at a drop of a hat...even provoke it if necessary. While we may not be able to avoid war, I don't believe that we should so happily bound into it. It may be a necessity from time to time, but it's never a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    How do you engage an opponent that sees glory in death?
    Kill them by the ocean liner full.
    Then when they see no point, can you civilize them.
    Nice, I believe we used that "logic" in the dark ages as well. Way to advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It is and in many ways.
    We had the weaponry to make the whole world kneel before us and beg for mercy.
    We're not that kind of people though.
    We instead helped those we vanquished rebuild their societies.
    It's a huge feather.
    We are magnanimous victors.
    Defining morality through victory...really? Wow. These things are not right. Inevitable, unavoidable and right aren't necessarily the same things. Just because you may have to do something doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do. You really don't understand this concept, but it's a base concept of morality. There is no feather in the death of 100,000's; that is just base fact. It's an atrocity, not something that we should jump up and down for joy about. Happy about death, happy about killing, happy about pain and suffering...what sort of moral code do you really live by? You can say that maybe we were forced and had to do these horrible acts, but to be jubilant about them is a whole different ballgame. There's nothing beautiful in war, it is an unfortunate reality which we engage in. We should learn from it, do our best to avoid it. There is nothing moral in bringing suffering into the world. If you have to do so, do so with a heavy heart and conviction to learn from these mistakes and do your best to avoid them in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It was right. Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    It ended the war, saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
    Saved hundred of thousands of lives by taking hundred of thousands of lives. Doesn't sound like we netted out any. What may have to be done isn't always right. You confuse this principle. You think because we were forced that it is right and it is just, you can be forced to do evil and partake in immoral acts. War is such an evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    War is horrible, but...
    ...Sorry... It was the right action to take.
    War is horrible, war is evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Not doing it would have been scandalous.
    I have no proof but I believe its horrors illustrated to our enemies they don't want to engage us or our Japanese, Korean or European allies.
    Perhaps my moral code is a little more steadfast than your own.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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