I fail to see what your example has to do with hate crimes. But, fine, I'll play along. Yes, the end result is exactly the same if both were acts of murder. Unless you're going to sit there and pretend that every single time a cop kills a criminal he is completely justified in doing so. Murder is murder no matter who commits it and for what reason. Sometimes cops have to kill, very often in self-defense or in defense of others. That is not murder. However, if there is no immediate threat and the cop shoots to kill he will be prosecuted.
I fail to see what hate crimes have to do with beheading and murdering wives, sisters and daughters or sons. But, fine, I'll play along. If cops keep on killing in a certain pattern, the cause and roots are investigated. If it found that they belong to certain club, mafia, - the mafia gets persecuted, clubs are closed, measures are taken to prevent repetition of the same. The investigations points to the club of Islam.
My point was not to equate Muslims and Catholics, but to equate the machista societies of Southern Europe and South America and the equally machista societies of the Muslim world. In the same way that I've never demonized all Calabresi or Sicilians for what some of them have done, I will not demonize all Muslims for what some of them think they're justified in doing.
Should I quote you? You said: “Just as they were a big problem in some parts of the Catholic world (mainly Southern Italy and parts of South America).”
This is exactly equating, - what is factually going on in the huge Muslim society including Muslim societies in the non-rural US and Europe united by the same teachings and moral is the same as what is hypothetically going in a few little and isolated group or tribes. Muslims are is not anything like that. They are not even mafia.
As many have already stated, the problem is not the religion, it's the approval of society at large. The religion doesn't matter when it comes to matters of family honor. I'm Italian, I know all about family honor and what it used to mean, and still means in remote parts of Calabria and Sicily. Fathers, brothers, cousins killed daughters, sisters and cousins for pretty much the same reasons Muslim men kill their women. Family honor. It's not about religion, it's about tribal traditions, patriarchy and the belief that women are either saintly virgins to be revered or cheap whores deserving only death. Catholics are taught to value a woman's virginity above all else. Keeping women honest in Southern Italy was, and often still is, a matter of family honor. The religious issue got so blurred with the societal dictates, it's very difficult to tell which came first. Either way, these crimes are thankfully becoming more and more rare, not just due to society's morals becoming much more lax in recent decades, but also because the justice system started punishing these crimes as harshly as other similar crimes.
I already answered:
justone said:
It would be a matter of honor to provide some references that would allow to equate problems of the Catholic world with problems of the Muslim world and to prove the same wide approval or indifference of the Catholic Clergy as we observe in Muslim clergy, - as well as to equate laws and actions of authorities of Italy and South America with laws and actions of Muslim authorities in Muslim countries. It is like SgtRocks has honor to provides references that may be cross checked.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...-violence.html (Muslim women 'face crisis over violence')
But it has been proven so many times that posters who bring Christians and catholics into any post where Muslims are discussed and who go into an endless spin trying to equate teachings, traditions, history and actions of Christians with teachings, traditions, history and actions of Muslims, who cast a blame on the West and the US for Jihad, - that these individuals do not have any idea or feeling of honor and morality.
People who try to impose that it is not Islam but tribal culture of some unnamed and hypothetical tribes do not make a little of sense, because it has been pointed many times that this culture of Islam blossoms not only in unnamed and hypothetical rural tribal areas, but right here in the US, and in Europe and everywhere where there are societies of Muslims.
You have no links, nothing to confirm your statements.
A friend of mine is a Sicilian, an owner of a very popular restaurant in my town (speaking even worse English than I do), once in a while invites me to a family party, where at least 1/2 of guests speak Italian between themselves, - they wouldn’t even behead YOU however hard and loud their honor would call them if they could hear your statements.
So again, while religion does play a part, it's not the sole reason these men do what they do.
So how big is the part? What is the sole reason of them doing the same under the same pretence of following their religion?
The problem with the Muslim world is that some clerics approve of these barbaric acts and even encourage the men to commit them. But that only reinforces something that was already present in those societies. The idea that women are possessions and that they must be kept pure at all costs. Even death.
I have no doubt that even if the Imams were to suddenly change their tune and start calling for the end of honor killings, these would still go on for another decade or two.
Shoooo, I don’t really get emotional typing, but you’re making me. Exactly. What else has been ever stated, pointed to, tipped, voiced on this and many other treads? How difficult is it to get? What are all the dances around and endless spins? If Imams had to suddenly changed their tune and start calling for the end of honor killings decade or two ago we would have seen such stories as an exclusion from the rule. If Imams had to suddenly changed their tune and start calling for the end of honor killings a century ago we would not be making any connection between such stories and Islam.
This is exactly what I am looking at – at the clergy and Imamas, at the very roots, the cause, which if changed would change the effect - that’s why I went to Islamic sides in my investigation of Mohammed’s pedophilia. And I’ve found clerics either do not mind or approve of these barbaric acts and even encourage the men to commit them, - everywhere I’ve looked. They are not changing their tune. Why? Why? Why do they sing the same tune – even here in the US – have you ever checked Islamonline? Why? Have you ever noticed that “the founder of a Muslim TV channel has been arrested in his wife’s brutal slaying”?
Why, - not in isolated rural cases, not in a tribal life, - but in the midst of civilized Europe and the US, on Internet by all means of civilization? Who does knows Quaran better - you, I or Imams?
I think you're trying to say that bigotry, racism and senseless violence should be fought on all fronts. Is that correct? If it is, then I have no argument with you on that. What I refuse to do is demonize an entire group of people for the actions of a few. In the same way that I've never demonized all Calabresi or Sicilians for what some of them have done, I will not demonize all Muslims for what some of them think they're justified in doing.
This is my main problem with Sgt Rock's posts. The way he presents these stories is not helping to fight violence against women, it's just adding more fuel to the anti-Muslim fire. There are ways to point out an endemic problem in a specific community without resorting to the sort of sensationalist tactics he resorts to. You got that right - any time the media decides to be hush hush on any matter is not good for America, no matter what anyone thinks of Muslims.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-charged-beheading-wife-5.html#post1057930139
I think you know the answer to that question.
S-s-s-s-h.
The irony of this story is unmistakable and everyone knows it.
:shrug:
Stating facts about Islam or anything else does not mean demonizing Islam or anything else.
People who try to impose that it is not Islam but tribal culture of some unnamed and hypothetical tribes do not make a little of sense, because it has been pointed many times that this culture of Islam blossoms not only in unnamed and hypothetical rural tribal areas, but right here in the US, and in Europe and everywhere where there are societies of Muslims.
If Sgt Rock is wrong in his facts, logic or conclusion then go ahead, submit your facts, logic and conclusion. When you say :
The problem with the Muslim world is that some clerics approve of these barbaric acts and even encourage the men to commit them. But that only reinforces something that was already present in those societies. The idea that women are possessions and that they must be kept pure at all costs. Even death.
I have no doubt that even if the Imams were to suddenly change their tune and start calling for the end of honor killings, these would still go on for another decade or two [and then end].
You got that right - any time the media decides to be hush hush on any matter is not good for America, no matter what anyone thinks of Muslims.
You exactly confirm the facts, logic and conclusions of Sgt Rock. Whatever is the flame or water you or him use to dilute your posts you come to the same bottom line. The only difference is that you add the word some in front of the word clergy, when you have no justification for doing it. I have spent some time going through Islamic sites in English and auto translation from Arabic, and I linked to those sites.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...said-wife-not-daughter-25.html#post1057926865
Your ‘’some’ has no justification in facts and reality. The correct statement would be that some clergy is in disagreement and disapprove… if to grant that they are sincere on public..
