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Thread: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

  1. #111
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    All I have heard from you is that 40k jobs don't count.




    That would be you misunderstanding my point.



    You have failed as usual to show any evidence for you claim that mouse conservation is stimulous.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  2. #112
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    That would be you misunderstanding my point.



    You have failed as usual to show any evidence for you claim that mouse conservation is stimulous.
    You've failed to listen to the points I made about them purchasing consumer goods in order to preserve the wetlands. You are pretending that they will just dump a few truckloads of money in the wetlands and the mice will make nests with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  3. #113
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    You've failed to listen to the points I made about them purchasing consumer goods in order to preserve the wetlands.
    Not one link to what that dollar amount of "goods" would be.

    Not one link to any hires

    Not one link to any shred of evidence that this money will stimulate ANY economy.

    FAIL.


    You are pretending that they will just dump a few truckloads of money in the wetlands and the mice will make nests with it.


    I am? pleasse quote me.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #114
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Can you explain the difference? The money has to go into the pockets of someone who will in turn spend it thus stimulating the economy.

    Depending on our Marginal_Propensity_to_Consume domestic goods, the amount of money spent on a given time, will have a multiplier effect due to the original injection of dollars, and the remaining transactions (known as steps 2 through infinity) provide the multiplier effect.

    Here is a very very very very basic example of a Keynesian multiplier effect, that is semi representitive of our economy in the US:

    In one year, unemployment has jumped 2.7%. According to Okun's Law, a 1% rise in unemployment equates to a 2% loss in GDP. So we have a decrease in GDP (income) of around $740 billion from January of last year. Full employment GDP (market equilibrium) is probably in the 3% ranges.

    Most people would think, "hell our stimulus package is greater than the GDP shortfall, so we are gonna be ok."

    But we forgot about the multiplier effect. Say for instance that our marginal propensity to consume domestic goods is 50%, giving a multiplier of 2. From steps to through infinity (when the money stops trickling), an additional $740 billion of economic activity (GDP) occurs (assuming there are no leakages).

    Does $1.48 billion sound like it possesses the sheer quantity to overt asset liquidation? Consider the consequences of 10% unemployment, or $1.9 trillion in GDP shortfall. This money does not filter into the system until the end of the summer, when they plan spend something like $150 billion tops by the end of 2009. By that time, unemployment could be higher than 10%...

    Missing the mark is really bad, even worse than going way over the shortfall, because it will fail to turn the tide, and could lead to higher prices (stagflation). But that is not the worse possible consequence of this fake ass stimulus.

    This money has to come from somewhere, and it forms a zero sum game with private investment. More and more money flowing into the treasury to pay for this endeavor equates to less and less investment in the private sector. Private sector innovation creates greater worker productivity, and higher standards of living.

    Future generations will be far more harmed by the crowding out of private investment, much more so than this big debt number that has eclipsed $10 trillion.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 02-16-09 at 04:19 PM.
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Not one link to what that dollar amount of "goods" would be.

    Not one link to any hires

    Not one link to any shred of evidence that this money will stimulate ANY economy.

    FAIL.






    I am? pleasse quote me.
    It's all logical that they will buy consumer goods and employ people.

    Just because they don't have the particulars worked out doesn't mean that they won't spend money on employing people and buying consumer goods.

    You are essentially saying that it goes into a black hole because the specifics haven't been laid out. This is fallacious.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  6. #116
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    It's all logical that they will buy consumer goods and employ people.

    no it's not. It could be 30 million to buy up some swamps from a single person for all we know.


    Just because they don't have the particulars worked out doesn't mean that they won't spend money on employing people and buying consumer goods.

    You are essentially saying that it goes into a black hole because the specifics haven't been laid out. This is fallacious.


    You want to call it "stimulus" for no other reason than "I love Obama and he can do no wrong".
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #117
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    It's all logical that they will buy consumer goods and employ people.

    Just because they don't have the particulars worked out doesn't mean that they won't spend money on employing people and buying consumer goods.

    You are essentially saying that it goes into a black hole because the specifics haven't been laid out. This is fallacious.
    Do you believe a mass consumption future is healthy, let alone sustainable?

    They were supposed to build roads, bridges, trains, science facilities, complete coverage of wireless internet, etc.... They needed double the quantity of funds, and they needed a $1 trillion injection before next year.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  8. #118
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Depending on our Marginal_Propensity_to_Consume domestic goods, the amount of money spent on a given time, will have a multiplier effect due to the original injection of dollars, and the remaining transactions (known as steps 2 through infinity) provide the multiplier effect.

    Here is a very very very very basic example of a Keynesian multiplier effect, that is semi representitive of our economy in the US:

    In one year, unemployment has jumped 2.7%. According to Okun's Law, a 1% rise in unemployment equates to a 2% loss in GDP. So we have a decrease in GDP (income) of around $740 billion from January of last year. Full employment GDP (market equilibrium) is probably in the 3% ranges.

    Most people would think, "hell our stimulus package is greater than the GDP shortfall, so we are gonna be ok."

    But we forgot about the multiplier effect. Say for instance that our marginal propensity to consume domestic goods is 50%, giving a multiplier of 2. From steps to through infinity (when the money stops trickling), an additional $740 billion of economic activity (GDP) occurs (assuming there are no leakages).

    Does $1.48 billion sound like it possesses the sheer quantity to overt asset liquidation? Consider the consequences of 10% unemployment, or $1.9 trillion in GDP shortfall. This money does not filter into the system until the end of the summer, when they plan spend something like $150 billion tops by the end of 2009. By that time, unemployment could be higher than 10%...

    Missing the mark is really bad, even worse than going way over the shortfall, because it will fail to turn the tide, and could lead to higher prices (stagflation). But that is not the worse possible consequence of this fake ass stimulus.

    This money has to come from somewhere, and it forms a zero sum game with private investment. More and more money flowing into the treasury to pay for this endeavor equates to less and less investment in the private sector. Private sector innovation creates greater worker productivity, and higher standards of living.

    Future generations will be far more harmed by the crowding out of private investment, much more so than this big debt number that has eclipsed $10 trillion.
    I appreciate your response. I can agree that the multiplier effect is lacking with much of the stimulus package.

    And you are correct, it is a zero sum game. Money has been sucked out of private investment for multiple reasons. The backlash from bad investments on overvalued investments has brought us here. Confidence has been lost. Without an injection of capital into the system, we may have zero private investment. We will have to wait and see as to how it works out.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  9. #119
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    no it's not. It could be 30 million to buy up some swamps from a single person for all we know.
    Or it could be used to send these mice to Mars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    You want to call it "stimulus" for no other reason than "I love Obama and he can do no wrong".
    You fail at mindreading. I have criticized him and you have thanked those posts. Just like you have given him credit and you point to that when people accuse you of ODS. Why don't you grow up? You say that you give what you get. Where did I accuse you of ODS in this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  10. #120
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    Re: House OKs $787B stimulus bill with GOP opposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Do you believe a mass consumption future is healthy, let alone sustainable?

    They were supposed to build roads, bridges, trains, science facilities, complete coverage of wireless internet, etc.... They needed double the quantity of funds, and they needed a $1 trillion injection before next year.
    I think it's a parachute for our descent as opposed to a freefall.

    I don't pretend that this is a cure all at all. I don't think it's been presented as such. It is the beginning. They will reassess as time continues. I have to agree it is flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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