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Thread: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

  1. #81
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    This is typical of the lib.
    They praise the conservative for compromising his values.

    I'd rather not be praised by the liberal.
    I compromise my Conservatism certainly. Today is not a time for a thorough Conservatism even those like Thatcher or Reagan who claim to be Conservative are more motivated by abstract ideologies than a Conservative really should be. I'll be the first to admit my decentralised vision for Britain is sometimes in tension with pure Conservatism in means and ends. I can rationalise it somewhat in the fact that the dominant trends and powers in today's Britain are not conducive to a Conservative spirit and my desired changes will be a lot more so perhaps and also in the fact that I plan a decentralised vision with plenty of scope for local customs and an increase in intermediate associations and their roles against the decidely unconservative, centralised bureaucracy of my nation but I can't completely get away from the fact I want change that is in some ways quite radical.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-16-09 at 05:27 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It's not that complex. Haul out the Commi Manifesto.

    The collective before the individual.
    "It Takes a Village"
    Marxism is a hell of a lot more than the manifesto.

    Putting the collective before the individual is a vague phrase, Conservatism is certainly not about unbounded individualism.

    Stalinism is a mode of behavior when dealing with opponents. It desires to achieve a result of compliance through fear, through control.
    That sounds more like terrorism. It is not restricted to Stalinists.

    Socialism is the government intrusion into the free market.
    Quick, someone tell Kropotkin.

    I do.
    I'm a proud, unapologetic conservative.
    Really, perhaps you are but you are still into throwing around silly, irrelevant labels.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-16-09 at 05:28 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    This is typical of the lib.
    They praise the conservative for compromising his values.
    You still don't get it. Not surprising. He didn't compromise his values. He doesn't look at life with blinders on in some sort of fantasy black or white state. This is why you extremists on both sides of the aisle fail so miserably. You stomp your feet and say, "I'm right and your evil" without looking at anything objectively.

    Wessexman is conservative, but he has logic in his positions. Extremist have no logic. They look at things one way: how can I defend my position no matter what, and how can I attack the other, no matter what. This is what you are doing. You keep making yourself look more and more as I've described you.

    I'd rather not be praised by the liberal.
    Don't worry. You won't.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #84
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I compromise my Conservatism certainly. Today is not a time for a thorough Conservatism even those like Thatcher or Reagan who claim to be Conservative are more motivated by abstract ideologies than a Conservative really should be. I'll be the first to admit my decentralised vision for Britain is sometimes in tension with pure Conservatism in means and ends.
    Conservatism and truth are needed now more than ever.

    Dodd and Frank should be on the stand defending their behavior.
    Raines and Gorellick should be doing like-kind, along with the cast of criminals that ran Fannie and Freddie into the ground.

    The dead weight should be left to Mr. Market.
    Let it be a warning for the future.

    Instead we have government bailing out losers, and in the process, they're wasting hundreds of billions.
    Send them to Chapter 11 and let the private sector do the correcting from there.

    This is going to end up just Like Philip Holzmann.
    They got wads of cash and went titters just the same.
    The fundamental problems weren't addressed and the cash only prolonged the problem, and eventual result.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  5. #85
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Conservatism and truth are needed now more than ever.

    Dodd and Frank should be on the stand defending their behavior.
    Raines and Gorellick should be doing like-kind, along with the cast of criminals that ran Fannie and Freddie into the ground.

    The dead weight should be left to Mr. Market.
    Let it be a warning for the future.

    Instead we have government bailing out losers, and in the process, they're wasting hundreds of billions.
    Send them to Chapter 11 and let the private sector do the correcting from there.

    This is going to end up just Like Philip Holzmann.
    They got wads of cash and went titters just the same.
    The fundamental problems weren't addressed and the cash only prolonged the problem, and eventual result.
    I'm not that thrilled with the bailouts either. I'm not sure is all we are arguing over by far.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Marxism is a hell of a lot more than the manifesto.

    Putting the collective before the individual is a vague phrase, Conservatism is certainly not about unbounded individualism.
    This is true. But the problem here is that extremists see this as an either or situation. Yet there are varying degrees of each. I would say that in American history, the President that was the most socialistic was FDR. Was he a complete collectivist? Not in the least. The most conservative President was probably Calvin Coolidge or maybe Ronald Reagan. Neither were complete individualists. Yet extremists cannot see these shades of gray.


    That sounds more like terrorism. It is not restricted to Stalinists.
    And though economically, Stalinist Russia was quite socialistic, politically and governmentally, it was more fascist, which is more of a right wing ideology.

    Quick, someone tell Kropotkin.
    Excellent point. Or perhaps Murray Bookchin.

    Really, perhaps you are but you are still into throwing around silly, irrelevant labels.
    Correct.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #87
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You still don't get it. Not surprising. He didn't compromise his values. He doesn't look at life with blinders on in some sort of fantasy black or white state. This is why you extremists on both sides of the aisle fail so miserably. You stomp your feet and say, "I'm right and your evil" without looking at anything objectively.

    Wessexman is conservative, but he has logic in his positions. Extremist have no logic. They look at things one way: how can I defend my position no matter what, and how can I attack the other, no matter what. This is what you are doing. You keep making yourself look more and more as I've described you.
    First, I've looked at the left... I was of the left.
    I was a drone... a well educated drone.

    I denounce the left because its ideas are failed ones.
    I lived it. Still do.
    That's logic buddy. Real life transition.
    So pleas about "getting along" or "eliminating conservatives" for the greater good rings to me as an opening for socialism.

    When socialism has a perfect record for waste, fraud, corruption and failure... why support any of it? To do so is illogical.

    And sorry, but you're wrong again.
    Wessexman's admitted to compromising.

    Look CC, socialism has failed every time it has been attempted.
    I asked you to show me one time it has worked for the long haul.
    You have not given me one.


    I've answered your questions.. proven my point... now answer the question posed some time ago.

    Show me one instance socialism has worked.
    One.

    O N E.

    Jus du ette.
    Last edited by zimmer; 02-16-09 at 05:39 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  8. #88
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Conservatism and truth are needed now more than ever.

    Dodd and Frank should be on the stand defending their behavior.
    Raines and Gorellick should be doing like-kind, along with the cast of criminals that ran Fannie and Freddie into the ground.

    The dead weight should be left to Mr. Market.
    Let it be a warning for the future.

    Instead we have government bailing out losers, and in the process, they're wasting hundreds of billions.
    Send them to Chapter 11 and let the private sector do the correcting from there.

    This is going to end up just Like Philip Holzmann.
    They got wads of cash and went titters just the same.
    The fundamental problems weren't addressed and the cash only prolonged the problem, and eventual result.
    And guess what? I'm not thrilled with the bailouts, either. See how your perception and position is getting blown out of the water?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #89
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    First, I've looked at the left... I was of the left.
    I was a drone... a well educated drone.

    I denounce the left because its ideas are failed ones.
    I lived it. Still do.
    That's logic buddy. Real life transition.
    So pleas about "getting along" or "eliminating conservatives" for the greater good rings to me as an opening for socialism.

    When socialism has a perfect record for waste, fraud, corruption and failure... why support any of it? To do so is illogical.

    And sorry, but you're wrong again.
    Wessexman's admitted to compromising.

    Look CC, socialism has failed every time it has been attempted.
    I asked you to show me one time it has worked for the long haul.
    You have not given me one.


    I've answered your questions.. proven my point... now answer the question posed some time ago.

    Show me one instance socialism has worked.
    One.

    O N E.

    Jus du ette.
    Still straw manning. And soapboxing. Show where I said I support socialism. You have yet to answer this question, which I posed to you at the beginning of this.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #90
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    Re: Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is true. But the problem here is that extremists see this as an either or situation. Yet there are varying degrees of each. I would say that in American history, the President that was the most socialistic was FDR. Was he a complete collectivist? Not in the least. The most conservative President was probably Calvin Coolidge or maybe Ronald Reagan. Neither were complete individualists. Yet extremists cannot see these shades of gray.
    There is also the fact that while Conservatism is against political Collectivism to a large degree it is not for a society of autonomous individuals, it believes that association is a key part of humanity and that the intermediate associations are very important and require sufficient autonomy and authority and that means over the individual as well as from the state.

    Robert Nisbet puts it well as usual.

    Canadian Conservative Forum - Requested Essay

    Conservatives, from Burke on, have tended to see the population much in the manner medieval legists and philosophical realists (in contrast to nominalists) saw it: as composed of, not individuals directly, but the natural groups within which individuals invariably live: family, locality, church, region, social class, nation, and so on. Individuals exist, of course, but they cannot be seen or comprehended save in terms of social identities which are inseparable from groups and associations. If modern conservatism came into existence essentially through such a work as Burke's attack on the French Revolution, it is because the Revolution, so often in the name of the individual and his natural rights, destroyed or diminished the traditional groups - guild, aristocracy, patriarchal family, church, school, province, etc. - which Burke declared to be the irreducible and constitutive molecules of society. Such early conservatives as Burke, Bonald, Haller, and Hegel (of The Philosophy of Right) and such conservative liberals as the mature Lamennais and of course Tocqueville, saw individualism - that is, the absolute doctrine of individualism - as being as much of a menace to social order and true freedom as the absolute doctrine of nationalism. Indeed, they argued, it is the pulverizing of society into a sandheap of individual particles, each claiming natural rights, that makes the arrival of collectivist nationalism inevitable.
    And though economically, Stalinist Russia was quite socialistic, politically and governmentally, it was more fascist, which is more of a right wing ideology.
    I personally think terms like left and right lack much meaning today.

    I like as diverse groups as paleocons and anarcho-syndicalists and regularly argue against neocons, American style libertarians and social democrats/liberals.

    Excellent point. Or perhaps Murray Bookchin.
    I quite like Murray Bookchin myself, I was an anarchist once and I'm still not a million miles away. Kropotkin and Landauer are my favourites though.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-16-09 at 05:53 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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