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Thread: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

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    mad Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    More than the bad economy, having a president who respects military personnel and tries to keep them safe will cause a boost in recruitment. Bush didn't care if the troops died, they were volunteers...after all.
    I'd like to describe the intelligence level of this post without breaking the rules, but it can't be done.
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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    That argument reminds me of a lack of a decent argument.


    Who said the military taking over the gov't? I was not being so crude. I was talking of the negative influence that a high degree of military values and wartime feeling can have on a society and the relationship between the state and the traditional, intermediate associations and their values.

    To quote Alexis De Tocqueville:

    All men of military genius are fond of centralization, which increases their strength; and all men of centralizing genius are fond of war, which compels nations to combine all their powers in the hands of the government. Thus the democratic tendency that leads men unceasingly to multiply the privileges of the state and to circumscribe the rights of private persons is much more rapid and constant among those democratic nations that are exposed by their position to great and frequent wars than among all others.
    Major part of why I joined the National Guard. Citizen soldiers.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    That's only true when people join up for a specific war. The soldiers I know joined right out of high school because they want to serve, and I'd think that sort of situation reflects the vast majority of any volunteer army. I don't see why committing to serve without knowing exactly what that will entail would be less respectable. I respect people for their willingness to defend the nation even when the circumstance aren't forcing them to do so.
    Many people are willing to defend the nation. During peacetime the idea in the British army that they are likely to have to do such is low. Hence they don't deserve a special amount of respect.


    I don't know what Britain is like, but America doesn't have clean divisions between wartime and peacetime. When America isn't at war with anybody we usually have troops deployed in various conflicts and other dangerous situations. I don't think there's been a time since the start of WWI when joining the military carries very little chance of actually risking one's life.
    Firstly risking one's life comes in many forms, only certain kinds deserve special kinds of respect in my book. Serving in Iraq with the British army makes someone no more respectful than a lot of other people in my book. But aside from that most soldiers in the British army since WWII have had a low chance of serving in a danger zone. The worst risk was Northern Ireland.

    Hero is a bit strong of a word, but I do believe that committing to defend one's country is something to be respected whether it is peacetime or not.
    The point is that joining the military is far from a decent indicator of that during peacetime. In Britain it neither amounts to most of those who are willing to defend the nation nor necessarily are those in the military expecting to be put in harm's way due to the low risk in peacetime.

    I also believe that that commitment is something that all parts of our society can and should respect.
    So do I but that does not mean holding up the military and its values as something special during peacetime, that is very dangerous. Military values of centralisation, authoritarian command, rationalisation and bureaucratisation are not good if allowed to pervade a society. As Robert Nisbet has pointed war and the military has always been the greatest force for encouraging such values. War is the health of the state as a wiseman once said.

    There are few more momentous events in Western history as the decree of the national convention of 23rd August 1794 declaring The levee en masse. This is what the pervadence of military values and wartime consciousness can do.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-10-09 at 10:20 PM.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Many people are willing to defend the nation. During peacetime the idea in the British army that they are likely to have to do such is low. Hence they don't deserve a special amount of respect.
    That is not so in America. If wartime isn't more common than peacetime in the US there isn't much of a difference. Maybe I'd feel as you do if I grew up in a different culture, although I sort of doubt it.

    Firstly risking one's life comes in many forms, only certain kinds deserve special kinds of respect in my book. Serving in Iraq with the British army makes someone no more respectful than a lot of other people in my book.
    In my experience soldiers don't sign up to fight a specific battle. People who enlist right now, for example, may end up in Iraq, may end up in Afghanistan, or may end up in Japan or Germany. People who enlist enlist to serve their country no matter what form that takes, and when they enlist they don't know what form it will take. I think that deserves respect

    But aside from that most soldiers in the British army since WWII have had a low chance of serving in a danger zone. The worst risk was Northern Ireland.
    Well maybe that's the source of our differences. Every person I know who has joined the military did so knowing they would likely risk their lives, whether or not they joined in peacetime.

    The point is that joining the military is far from a decent indicator of that during peacetime. In Britain it neither amounts to most of those who are willing to defend the nation nor necessarily are those in the military expecting to be put in harm's way due to the low risk in peacetime.
    Peacetime isn't as clean cut or as permanent in America. Since WWI America and our military has seen a lot of conflict. Any living military member or veteran joined that army with that knowledge

    So do I but that does not mean holding up the military and its values as something special during peacetime, that is very dangerous. Military values of centralisation, authoritarian command, rationalisation and bureaucratisation are not good if allowed to pervade a society. As Robert Nisbet has pointed war and the military has always been the greatest force for encouraging such values. War is the health of the state as a wiseman once said.
    Those are certainly some military values, but they aren't what American society and media glorify. The military values that we see held in esteem are strength, sacrifice, loyalty, patriotism, etc etc etc. Our military is seen as a part of the culture of freedom and liberty that define America, not as opposed to it.

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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    That is not so in America. If wartime isn't more common than peacetime in the US there isn't much of a difference. Maybe I'd feel as you do if I grew up in a different culture, although I sort of doubt it.
    From what I can see of the US it is much the same. There has been a lot of peacetime since WWII and no wars like WWII.

    I'm not saying these kind sof soldiers are dirt, in fact I'm saying they are quite to be respected as things go but not beyond a lot of other people and nothing like those who sign up to serve in an actual war like WWII.

    In my experience soldiers don't sign up to fight a specific battle. People who enlist right now, for example, may end up in Iraq, may end up in Afghanistan, or may end up in Japan or Germany. People who enlist enlist to serve their country no matter what form that takes, and when they enlist they don't know what form it will take. I think that deserves respect
    I think it deserves no more respect than many other activities. They aren't expecting to actually defend their nation in a war like WWII.



    Well maybe that's the source of our differences. Every person I know who has joined the military did so knowing they would likely risk their lives, whether or not they joined in peacetime.
    I just can't see how this can be true. Perhaps during Vietnam they may have been such, but since then it hasn't been that way, at least until 2003 and even then not completely.



    Peacetime isn't as clean cut or as permanent in America. Since WWI America and our military has seen a lot of conflict. Any living military member or veteran joined that army with that knowledge
    They also joined with the knowledge that the risk they'd be the one in that situation, if you ignore the Vietnam years and WWII, is quite low.

    Those are certainly some military values, but they aren't what American society and media glorify. The military values that we see held in esteem are strength, sacrifice, loyalty, patriotism, etc etc etc. Our military is seen as a part of the culture of freedom and liberty that define America, not as opposed to it.
    Those values and ways of doing things have influenced American society as much as they have influenced British society. America has continued to become more centralisation and bureaucratic since WWI with the increasing influence of the miltary and military-industrial complex. This is an old pattern, Robert Nisbet even went so far as saying that few things in human history are as certain as the fact that heightened influence of the military and its values will help to spread these ways of doing things. The use of military reasoning and values to increase state power in the US was noted as far back as 1919 by Randolph Bourne in his excellent essay on the subject.

    Part 1 of the unfinished essay: "The State" - Antiwar.com

    The moment war is declared, however, the mass of the people, through some spiritual alchemy, become convinced that they have willed and executed the deed themselves. They then, with the exception of a few malcontents, proceed to allow themselves to be regimented, coerced, deranged in all the environments of their lives, and turned into a solid manufactory of destruction toward whatever other people may have, in the appointed scheme of things, come within the range of the Government's disapprobation. The citizen throws off his contempt and indifference to Government, identifies himself with its purposes, revives all his military memories and symbols, and the State once more walks, an august presence, through the imaginations of men. Patriotism becomes the dominant feeling, and produces immediately that intense and hopeless confusion between the relations which the individual bears and should bear toward the society of which he is a part.


    There are few forces like war and the strong influence of the military that are so good for increasing state power and scope, for bureaucraticing and rationalising the state. There are few forces quite so revolutionary as Marx, Engels, Lenin and the Jacobins knew.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-10-09 at 11:00 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'd like to describe the intelligence level of this post without breaking the rules, but it can't be done.
    I think, you've made it.

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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    I wonder if the army could do anything with a BS in Advertising and Marketing...

    Other then, you know, regular army stuff.
    Well they made free video games, which involved lots of violence.
    However, the videos games sucked hardcore.

    I'm enticed by the Army for it's plan to give me money.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    If the military could give me a job which actually used my skills and training (rather then my ability to carry things, dig holes and shoot people) I'd join. Particularly since Obama is ending DADT.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    If the military could give me a job which actually used my skills and training (rather then my ability to carry things, dig holes and shoot people) I'd join. Particularly since Obama is ending DADT.
    Done with college already? Could probably get a commission and work as a 46A

    Public Affairs, General (46A).

    Description of duties. Commands or advises the commander on all public affairs matters, including command information, public information—to include media relations—and community relations. Develops, coordinates, and supervises these activities within the command.

    Special qualifications. Must satisfy one of the following criteria: Successful completion of the Public Affairs Officer Course taught by the Defense Information School (DINFOS). ARNG and USAR officers who are branch qualified and are unable to attend the PAOC may be AOC 46 qualified be successful completion of Phase I training (46A Correspondence Course) and the Phase II (2 week resident training at DINFOS). Request for waiver of qualification must be made to Chief, Public Affairs for U.S. Army, Chief National Guard Bureau (ARNG) or Chief for Army Reserve (OCAR).

    Special grading of positions. Mobile Public Affairs and Broadcast Public Affairs Detachment Commander will be graded MAJ.

    Unique duty positions.

    (a) Command information officer.

    (b) Media Relations Officer

    (c) Editor, magazine or newspaper.

    (d) Marketing/advertising officer.

    (e) Speechwriter.
    Army Commissioned Officer Jobs - Public Affairs (46)
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
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    Re: Military recruitment surges as jobs disappear

    How much control of material does a 46 A have?

    What if they're flaming liberals, and are outspoken critics of the army?
    with that in mind

    What if they're fire-breathing conservatives, and are outspoken critics of the flaming liberals?


    I'm not trying to mock, or make fun of these are serious questions.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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