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Thread: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

  1. #31
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    So... Obama is elected by those who "did not carry the burden of taxes"?

    Forgive me but when you say "this government cares not about the people" yada yada yada, and the government that was elected is a large majority democratic, what the hell is that supposed to mean?

    Feel free to take some time to formulate a coherent response.
    There can be an argument made that a large portion of the people who don't pay taxes voted for Obama.

    Also the way the elections, voting, and campaigning laws are structured to favor democrats and republicans could be a way to say that it was manipulated so that individuals couldn't make a true informed decision.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #32
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Nope, the core of the credit problem is intra bank (between banks). They dont want to loan each other money because they can not or do not want to value their toxic assets. The toxic assets arise because of falling house prices (which were frankly way inflated), and as long as house prices are falling, then the more toxic assets will come and the banks will continue to not loan each other money. And as long as banks dont want to loan to each other, then forget about companies and people getting credit.

    Getting a tax cut that will be used to pay off debt or save up, wont do squat. Sure it might help VISA and Mastercard since that is the debt that will most likely be paid off, but on the flip side, both companies and other CC companies will just cut your credit line drasticlly if you do that.

    Tax cuts will not pay off mortgages and that is where the huge majority of the toxic debt is tied too. After all the problem arised when American's got more and more loans in houses that had inflated prices, prices that are now falling so that American's owe more in their house than it is worth.... and that is the crux of the toxic assets and why it is so hard to value them. That and because of lack of regulation and rules, banks and the markets "mixed" toxic debt with good debt and no one has a clear view over what is what.. hence all debt is potentially toxic, and no one can trust the valuation that the debt was bought on.
    Yea but think about it. If the credit cards are out of the way it releases more funds to pay larger bills like mortgages. Cutting taxes will have a trickle up effect in my opinion.

    I'd also like to add that the intrabank credit isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is. Look at the foreign currency trade houses. They rely on liquidity providers(market makers) and they are still doing business to this day with out much of a problem.

    Liquidity has softened but that is expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Only the stupid politicians are looking for that.. The pain will be here for months if not years to come, even Obama has said so many times. And any politician that even hints that tax cuts or any form of stimulus will "work instantly" should be removed from his position for incompetence.
    Totally agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The problem is that the US politicians and somewhat the UK and other European politicians are not willing to go against their ideological conservative free market principles, that have so clearly failed.

    The US should do as the Swedes did, when they went through exactly the same problem back in the early 1990s. Nationalise banks that are failing, consolidate and improve and then sell off. One of the healthiest banks in the world today is Nordea, an entity of nationalised Swedish banks that since hence have been privatised and has emerged as a juggernaut in banking in Scandinavia and Northern Europe. It was painful but it worked, but it also goes against the "conservative mindset", which is the US biggest problem at the moment.

    Basicly we need to cut off the foot to save the life of the patient.
    Nationalizing the banks is a horrible idea, especially with the political classes track record of major ****ing up.

    I think the problem is that these big banks under normal market conditions would collapse from their own giganticism.

    In my mind they are to big to exist.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #33
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    There can be an argument made that a large portion of the people who don't pay taxes voted for Obama.

    Also the way the elections, voting, and campaigning laws are structured to favor democrats and republicans could be a way to say that it was manipulated so that individuals couldn't make a true informed decision.
    Um, yes, but the argument can also be made that a large portion of the people who don't pay taxes voted for McCain. Your point?

    This is basically trying to put a greater value on the poor of one political ideology than another which is ridiculous.

    I'll agree with you on the whole "the voters aren't informed" statement which is true in almost every election and on both sides of the aisle. Problem is that we can't require voters to take a basic knowledge test before casting their ballots. Too bad.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  4. #34
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Um, yes, but the argument can also be made that a large portion of the people who don't pay taxes voted for McCain. Your point?

    This is basically trying to put a greater value on the poor of one political ideology than another which is ridiculous.

    I'll agree with you on the whole "the voters aren't informed" statement which is true in almost every election and on both sides of the aisle. Problem is that we can't require voters to take a basic knowledge test before casting their ballots. Too bad.
    Check this out CNN.com - Elections 2006

    It says that people making $50,000 a year or less voted for democrats more than republicans.

    Now that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't pay taxes, it means that the probability is higher with this group that they don't pay.

    That doesn't mean I'm all excited about poor people voting for Democrats is so horrible and makes Republicans better.

    It just means, in my opinion, their populist propaganda is appealing to the weakest minded and the Republicans aren't strong on this front.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #35
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Check this out CNN.com - Elections 2006

    It says that people making $50,000 a year or less voted for democrats more than republicans.

    Now that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't pay taxes, it means that the probability is higher with this group that they don't pay.

    That doesn't mean I'm all excited about poor people voting for Democrats is so horrible and makes Republicans better.

    It just means, in my opinion, their populist propaganda is appealing to the weakest minded and the Republicans aren't strong on this front.
    I make under 50k along with almost every other person I know and we all pay taxes. But thanks for grouping us in the category "weak minded". You are aware that evangelicals voted overwhelmingly republican correct? Wouldn't that lead one to believe that Republican's have their own group of weak minded individuals? And don't give me this nonsense about populist propaganda, need I remind you of the chant "drill baby drill"?

    Oh yeah, McCain also supported the suspension of the gas tax even though EVERY economist said it was a stupid idea. Yeah... Democrats have the corner on the "populist propaganda".
    Last edited by Indy; 02-07-09 at 04:01 PM.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  6. #36
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    I make under 50k along with almost every other person I know and we all pay taxes. But thanks for grouping us in the category "weak minded". You are aware that evangelicals voted overwhelmingly republican correct? Wouldn't that lead one to believe that Republican's have their own group of weak minded individuals? And don't give me this nonsense about populist propaganda, need I remind you of the chant "drill baby drill"?
    I didn't say all persons making under $50,000 were weak minded. That would include me to.

    I didn't say the republicans message was any better either. I pointed that out in fact. My wording is a bit off I suppose.

    I was trying to point out that Democrats typically target lower income people for their votes. Using populist crap tactics. The Republicans use a different approach to target middle to upper income people, it is populist non the less.

    I'm sorry to inform you that both use populist crap to get people to vote for them. Very little of it has any real substance based in logic. It's nearly all emotion.

    Obama targeted people who don't understand economics and are weak minded and he won. Look at his campaign website. It is also valid that people who don't pay taxes most likely voted for him.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #37
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Obama targeted people who don't understand economics and are weak minded and he won. Look at his campaign website. It is also valid that people who don't pay taxes most likely voted for him.
    Unfortunately it looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree here. It seems to me that the exact opposite it true but hey, that's what debating is all about right?

    Just to clarity, do you really think that the evangelical base is not weak minded and that they have a firm grasp on macro and micro economics? Global trade deals, international politics, etc.? Very, very few people do.

    I will part with this one thing, if Democrats typically are stupider and understand the economy less, then why are the richest states in the nation Blue?






    Last edited by Indy; 02-07-09 at 04:26 PM.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  8. #38
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Unfortunately it looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree here. It seems to me that the exact opposite it true but hey, that's what debating is all about right?
    I was just adding that lower income people who most likely don't pay taxes voted for Obama. That is my point really.


    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Just to clarity, do you really think that the evangelical base is not weak minded and that they have a firm grasp on macro and micro economics? Global trade deals, international politics, etc.? Very, very few people do.
    I know the evangelical base is full of morons. Believe me I live in the south I experience it everyday.


    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    I will part with this one thing, if Democrats typically are stupider and understand the economy less, then why are the richest states in the nation Blue?
    The cities with the highest concentration of people are blue typically. Their economic prosperity is slowly going down the **** tubes.

    Auto manufacturing is moving to the south and is sustainable here.

    More and more white collar jobs are coming here from northern states because its just cheaper to do business here than it is their.

    Because of the development of our nation the typically democrat states already had the infrastructure in place to support higher income jobs. Those businesses are slowly but surely moving to the southern but it takes time and money to relocate existing resources.

    Check out how the Detroit auto makers are flopping and closing plants but in my regional area we have had many, many auto parts suppliers set up shop. In the 3 border state area there have been about 3 or 4 new auto manufacturers opening plants.

    The writing is on the wall for Democratic states as far as jobs go. They simply tax way to much.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #39
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Okay then. If that helps you sleep at night.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  10. #40
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    Re: CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

    Here's a really interesting POVERTY map. Notice a trend?

    Affiant further sayeth not.

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