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Thread: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

  1. #61
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    It always amazes me how prochoicers respond to various scenarios. I think the thing that gets me the most is that the response isn't generally tied to the actual human that was killed but the circumstances surrounding it.

    Babies birthed into toilets and drowned provokes one response, abortions at 23 weeks provoke an entirely different one, and a born baby at 23 weeks tossed into a bag and suffocated will produce an even different response in many folks.

    Let's say the gal went in and had an abortion at 23 weeks gestational age. A non-botched abortion. Is that better/worse/ or the way I see it THE EXACT SAME THING as dumping the born 23 week old in a bag?

    Can someone explain it to me?
    23 weeks is 23 weeks. Makes no difference how it was done. What matters is whether or not the fetus has a functioning CNS to allow them to think and feel and be self-aware. Sentient. Viable. Able to live independent of a host body. As I understand it, at 23 weeks they CAN have all of the above.

  2. #62
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Not that I agree with any of this, but it's the first logically consistent position I've ever heard coming from a pro-choicer. It has somewhere to go except in a never-ending circle of semantics and deflection. Bravo, Jall, bravo...
    If this is the first time you've heard that argument then you obviously haven't been listening, that or you intentionally debate the most extreme fringe in order to prevent any real discussion from occurring.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  3. #63
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    23 weeks is 23 weeks. Makes no difference how it was done. What matters is whether or not the fetus has a functioning CNS to allow them to think and feel and be self-aware. Sentient. Viable. Able to live independent of a host body. As I understand it, at 23 weeks they CAN have all of the above.
    River Rat...correct sir. I took care of 23 week prematures infants. They ended up becomeing babies. Its murder at anything beyond a few days . What ...9 weeks fingers ,toes ,movement,eye buds,(not 20/20 vision but eye buds), heads ,arms, legs, I`d have trouble killing even an abortionist with that many elements of humanity, even though the abortionist doesn`t have a heart. A lot of emotion is flying around these days because of this botched abortion. Reality check: Go to your local abortion mill on a saturday morning.Take a cab because parking lots are all full,...the dumpsters are too,at the end of the day.
    Last edited by Rodney; 02-06-09 at 02:39 PM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    What I don't understand is how this is an abortion when the baby was born. That's the deciding factor for me. If a fetus never fully materializes into a baby (and is never born), yet stays in the mother and leaches off her body for years, is it ethical to remove the cells, which only serve to provide discomfort to the "mother"?

    It's a collection of cells with human DNA that are not completely identical to the host (mother). It follows a differentiation path, yet probably never develops a properly functioning CNS. It "feeds" off the mother like a baby would, but never becomes one. It is never born. It essentially serves no purpose. Is that murder to remove it? Is it murder to remove a parasitic twin?

    As far as I stand in abortion, you can't have an abortion if a baby is born. So while the headline reads "botched abortion," it should read "clinic owner kills infant" and should have no bearing on the abortion debate. Not like it should ANYWAY. Even if it was a "botched abortion," why should those against abortion use such a strawman? "Let's not only use an emotionally charged subject, but one that was a result of a mistake and/or ignorant individual."

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    If this is the first time you've heard that argument then you obviously haven't been listening, that or you intentionally debate the most extreme fringe in order to prevent any real discussion from occurring.
    No, I've been listening quite intently for some time. Mostly I just hear things about "parasites" or that a right to life is nonexistent or superseded by freedom of choice, you know, silly things that make no sense whatsoever.

    Not one pro-choice proponent I've engaged in a debate has made mention of cut-off periods involving viability or the ability to feel pain. Not saying they don't exist, only that I've yet to hear an argument from them, however, Jallman has rectified this disparity, hence my congratulations.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    What if the abortion was performed perfectly? Clearly that wouldn't be 1st degree murder yet the only thing that changes in the two scenarios is the location of the organism in question.
    In my opinion 23 weeks into the pregnancy is WAY too late to perform an abortion period, much less if the birth has already happened.

    Seriously to try to spin this as a reason to ban all abortions rather than looking at this extreme instance and prosecute it accordingly just makes your argument look weak. A strong argument wouldn't have to rely on knee-jerk reactions this.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Once a fetus is viable. Once it is capable of living independent from its host body. (which require a functional CNS)
    Why people have difficulty understanding this argument is beyond me. I guess you have to be patient with some people.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It's an abortion, isn't that killing? Botching it doesn't make it worse, does it? Of course liberals will let us know what the nuances are, so let us sit patiently and wait.
    So basically what you are saying is that you have no interest in understanding the details of the topic and would rather smugly sit and wait confident in your own infallibility? Is it any wonder why people don't jump at the chance to join your side of this debate?
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  9. #69
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    So basically what you are saying is that you have no interest in understanding the details of the topic and would rather smugly sit and wait confident in your own infallibility? Is it any wonder why people don't jump at the chance to join your side of this debate?
    I don't have an interest in the "details." The "details" appear to me to be just semantics games to kill babies because they're non-viable (according to some arbitrary measure), they're simply a sack of cells not possessing human qualities or dignity, they lack desire, or some other nonsense to excuse not protecting them.

    We have people like Obama that have no problem with babies born after an unsuccessful abortion to be stuck in a closet to die. We have people like jall that think, just as I knew he did, that babies are simply sacks of cells to be done with whatever is convenient for ourselves. We have people that create arbitrary viability standards to draw irrelevant distinctions between a fetus and a baby as though a fetus is something other than a human being in a natural stage of evolution. We have others still who rely on the details to argue that babies are just parasites without any human qualities at all.

    It's disgusting. It's pathetic.

    As it is often...the devil is, indeed, in the details.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    In my opinion 23 weeks into the pregnancy is WAY too late to perform an abortion period, much less if the birth has already happened.

    Seriously to try to spin this as a reason to ban all abortions rather than looking at this extreme instance and prosecute it accordingly just makes your argument look weak. A strong argument wouldn't have to rely on knee-jerk reactions this.
    It's not a knee jerk reaction. There are abortion providers out there who specialize in later term abortions. They're completely legal. Folks don't seem to take an issue with that. I just find it curious and interesting that this Dr. is painted as a heinous monster for putting the born infant in a bag yet had he done the abortion correctly -killing it in the womb- there are many folks who wouldn't be nearly as outraged.

    Since the intent of the drs. appointment was to end that human's life and that human life was ended I guess I just fail to see the hysteria. It's not even really newsworthy outside of the shock value it seems to have.

    People in this thread are calling for murder charges and the dr. in question may very well face some type of homicide charge. In my mind -given the laws- that's frankly absurd. His JOB was to end the life of that human and the humans location at the time of death seems rather irrelevant in the scope of things.

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