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Thread: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    That's actually the stance of many pro-choicers. He calls it a "moral consequence", I call it personhood. Same principal though. Exactly the same, actually.
    1. I'm not sure that you and I have ever debated the abortion issue. I am relating my experiences with Steen, Granny, and 1069.

    2. Jallman specifically stated he does not care about personhood.

    3. Do you agree that once a "fetus" is able to feel pain abortions should be criminalized?

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And? If the development is arrested before the fetus reaches the capacity for suffering, and more specifically spatial awareness, then what's the difference between the deaths of those cheek cells and the death of the fetus?

    The cheek cells don't care. The fetus doesn't care. Neither of them can have a care. What is the moral obligation to either one since they are both in the same category of awareness and our ability to feel empathy for either is limited only to imagination of what one or the other might be?
    You can be killed without having an awareness that you are dying. You can die without suffering a lick.

    The differences between a dead cheek cell and a dead human organism are substantial.

    I'm sure a full term infant could be killed without suffering, without awareness, without ever showing signs of caring about what was happening depending on the method used.

    Sure, avoiding human suffering is most definitely a moral obligation. But killing can be done quietly without any suffering and we still don't consider that ok. The moral obligation is to not take a human life. You have a moral obligation to not kill another without just cause. Their awareness, their intelligence, their suffering, has nothing to do with the moral obligation not to kill. Sure it would be more heinous to be a butcher who engaged in hours of torture before taking a life but taking a life is taking a life regardless of how it is done. A cheek cell is not a life.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    2. Jallman specifically stated he does not care about personhood.
    Yes, he says that. But his requirements for "drawing the line" are identical to those of us that say the line is "personhood". Identical. He just calls it by a different name.

    3. Do you agree that once a "fetus" is able to feel pain abortions should be criminalized?
    Once a fetus is viable. Once it is capable of living independent from its host body. (which require a functional CNS)

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Yes, he says that. But his requirements for "drawing the line" are identical to those of us that say the line is "personhood". Identical. He just calls it by a different name.


    Once a fetus is viable. Once it is capable of living independent from its host body. (which require a functional CNS)
    I don't think this is quite true. I think if it were scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to Jallman tomorrow that a 2 week gestational age fetus in the womb had the capacity to think and feel he'd be anti-abortion.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I don't think this is quite true. I think if it were scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to Jallman tomorrow that a 2 week gestational age fetus in the womb had the capacity to think and feel he'd be anti-abortion.
    I certainly would draw the line right there. It's not even proven to me that 21 weeks is the exact line, but it is the most plausible and humane demarcation. I prefer to see the cut-off at 18 weeks just to err on the side of caution.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    It always amazes me how prochoicers respond to various scenarios. I think the thing that gets me the most is that the response isn't generally tied to the actual human that was killed but the circumstances surrounding it.

    Babies birthed into toilets and drowned provokes one response, abortions at 23 weeks provoke an entirely different one, and a born baby at 23 weeks tossed into a bag and suffocated will produce an even different response in many folks.

    Let's say the gal went in and had an abortion at 23 weeks gestational age. A non-botched abortion. Is that better/worse/ or the way I see it THE EXACT SAME THING as dumping the born 23 week old in a bag?

    Can someone explain it to me?
    To me, all three scenarios are exactly the same.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    To me, all three scenarios are exactly the same.
    Yeah I think so too. The only slight differences might be in the amount of suffering. If a successful abortion caused that human more physical pain then suffocation in a bag then one would be a tad more heinous than the other. But if you think about how most late term abortions are done there's a solid chance that suffocating in a bag would be more merciful than collapsing a skull - pain wise.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Yeah I think so too. The only slight differences might be in the amount of suffering. If a successful abortion caused that human more physical pain then suffocation in a bag then one would be a tad more heinous than the other. But if you think about how most late term abortions are done there's a solid chance that suffocating in a bag would be more merciful than collapsing a skull - pain wise.
    The pain aside...you have a being that is aware of both itself, the space around it, and what is being done to it. I don't have any belief in the idea that a life can be snuffed out without some awareness if the life has reached a point of development where it has ever been aware of itself. There is a moral consequence once life is coupled with awareness and desire.

    "I think, therefore I am" actually means something.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Is there anyone who does not see this as murder?
    It's an abortion, isn't that killing? Botching it doesn't make it worse, does it? Of course liberals will let us know what the nuances are, so let us sit patiently and wait.
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I don't think this is quite true. I think if it were scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to Jallman tomorrow that a 2 week gestational age fetus in the womb had the capacity to think and feel he'd be anti-abortion.
    As would I. Since that would make them a person.

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