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Thread: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Personhood is a legal construction. I guess before a human being has a birth certificate it wouldn't be a person. That is irrelevant, however.
    Let's put it another way -- why would a human being ever not be a person? Why would make a legal distinction?



    I don't have to justify it. Blackmun justified it in his ruling many years ago.
    See, that's a cop-out. Taney justified slavery many years ago. Harlan justified segregation. Yet, we recognize both of those things as wrong and their advocates as evil.


    And that is where I split with most pro-choicers. I think it should be.
    Why?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Why?
    I don't care about personhood and I don't care about giving rights to something based on the fact that we share the same genetic structure. I care moral consequence and as human beings we have a moral obligation to see to it that we avert suffering to our own. If an action will cause suffering to, in this case, the fetus, then we should do everything in our power to keep that action from occurring. However, if the fetus hasn't got the capacity for suffering, then there is no moral consequence to the action.

    Once the physical structures of the nervous system have developed to the point where suffering is possible, abortion should be illegal from that point forward.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    I don't care about personhood and I don't care about giving rights to something based on the fact that we share the same genetic structure. I care moral consequence and as human beings we have a moral obligation to see to it that we avert suffering to our own. If an action will cause suffering to, in this case, the fetus, then we should do everything in our power to keep that action from occurring. However, if the fetus hasn't got the capacity for suffering, then there is no moral consequence to the action.

    Once the physical structures of the nervous system have developed to the point where suffering is possible, abortion should be illegal from that point forward.
    Not that I agree with any of this, but it's the first logically consistent position I've ever heard coming from a pro-choicer. It has somewhere to go except in a never-ending circle of semantics and deflection. Bravo, Jall, bravo...

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I don't care about personhood and I don't care about giving rights to something based on the fact that we share the same genetic structure. I care moral consequence and as human beings we have a moral obligation to see to it that we avert suffering to our own. If an action will cause suffering to, in this case, the fetus, then we should do everything in our power to keep that action from occurring. However, if the fetus hasn't got the capacity for suffering, then there is no moral consequence to the action.
    Except that you're denying it life.


    Once the physical structures of the nervous system have developed to the point where suffering is possible, abortion should be illegal from that point forward.
    I agree with Ethereal that it's a consistent position, but one which requires you to view denying life a matter of no moral consequence.

    I can kill someone without making that person suffer at all.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Except that you're denying it life.




    I agree with Ethereal that it's a consistent position, but one which requires you to view denying life a matter of no moral consequence.

    I can kill someone without making that person suffer at all.
    Refuting that person's desires and free will is suffering in and of itself. The fetus has neither before the physical structures are in place.

    We deny life to living being's every single day. If it is all about the denial of life, then to be consistent one would have to be mindful of all life.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Refuting that person's desires and free will is suffering in and of itself.
    That requires you to be sure of their "desires" and "will." Do you make the assumption that every person wants to continue living? If so, why?


    The fetus has neither before the physical structures are in place.
    It's an aggressive living organism which indicates its intention to survive at every point of development. Otherwise, heck, infants have no capacity to understand survival enough to "desire" it.


    We deny life to living being's every single day. If it is all about the denial of life, then to be consistent one would have to be mindful of all life.
    No, it's about the denial of human life. After all, we're all equal.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That requires you to be sure of their "desires" and "will." Do you make the assumption that every person wants to continue living? If so, why?
    I make that assumption until the opposite is demonstrated. A fetus, once able to feel pain and have desires, is still not able to demonstrate its desires. That doesn't mean we should not protect it until it can.


    It's an aggressive living organism which indicates its intention to survive at every point of development. Otherwise, heck, infants have no capacity to understand survival enough to "desire" it.
    You try not feeding an infant and I assure you it will express a desire to survive. A fetus, before it has a functioning nervous system, will not.


    No, it's about the denial of human life. After all, we're all equal.
    And I have already stated, I don't have instinctual empathy with a double helix strand of DNA with alternating base pairs.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I make that assumption until the opposite is demonstrated. A fetus, once able to feel pain and have desires, is still not able to demonstrate its desires. That doesn't mean we should not protect it until it can.

    You try not feeding an infant and I assure you it will express a desire to survive. A fetus, before it has a functioning nervous system, will not.
    But it demonstrates its intention to survive by continuing to develop. As you say above, even after your threshold, it can't express its desires. But it can demonstrate exactly what it's doing.


    And I have already stated, I don't have instinctual empathy with a double helix strand of DNA with alternating base pairs.
    Not sure why'd you be concerned if anyone survives, then.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    But it demonstrates its intention to survive by continuing to develop. As you say above, even after your threshold, it can't express its desires. But it can demonstrate exactly what it's doing.
    Yeah and my cheek cells, if scraped and put in a petri dish will continue to grow but I don't really equate that to any kind of desire.

    And in my example of not feeding an infant, the infant does much more than just demonstrate what it's doing. It's pretty clear that it "wants" or "desires" something when it does.


    Not sure why'd you be concerned if anyone survives, then.
    Okay. That's not a point I wish to argue with you as it goes way outside the scope of this discussion and reaches into hyperbole.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Not that I agree with any of this, but it's the first logically consistent position I've ever heard coming from a pro-choicer. It has somewhere to go except in a never-ending circle of semantics and deflection. Bravo, Jall, bravo...
    That's actually the stance of many pro-choicers. He calls it a "moral consequence", I call it personhood. Same principal though. Exactly the same, actually.

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