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Thread: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the distinction. Taxonomically, a "fetus" is the same thing as a "baby", i.e. they are both human. So, ultimately we are discussing the termination of humans.
    We both know that throwing out the term fetus in exchange for an emotionally charged word like "baby" is nothing but a semantic game meant to cloud the issue and emotionally extort pro-choice proponents into capitulation for fear of being called "baby killers".

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    or unborn babies are called fetuses so pro-choicers can feel better about slaughtering children

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    We both know that throwing out the term fetus in exchange for an emotionally charged word like "baby" is nothing but a semantic game meant to cloud the issue and emotionally extort pro-choice proponents into capitulation for fear of being called "baby killers".
    We also know that if you have to claim someone isn't human, or isn't a person, in order to justify a practice, that practice is evil. Else, you wouldn't have to do it.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    or unborn babies are called fetuses so pro-choicers can feel better about slaughtering children
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    We also know that if you have to claim someone isn't human, or isn't a person, in order to justify a practice, that practice is evil. Else, you wouldn't have to do it.
    beat ya
    pays to be pithy

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    We also know that if you have to claim someone isn't human, or isn't a person, in order to justify a practice, that practice is evil. Else, you wouldn't have to do it.
    No one claimed the fetus isn't human so try again.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No one claimed the fetus isn't human so try again.
    Some do.

    But let's say everyone agrees the fetus is human. You make my argument for me. You're saying they agree the fetus is human, yet claim that human isn't a person. As I say above, what's the only reason you'd deny a human is a person? To justify an evil practice.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    We both know that throwing out the term fetus in exchange for an emotionally charged word like "baby" is nothing but a semantic game meant to cloud the issue and emotionally extort pro-choice proponents into capitulation for fear of being called "baby killers".
    I agree, but both sides are guilty of this. Pro-choice proponents engage heavily in semantics when they devalue the unborn by pejoratively referring to them as a "fetus" or a "zygote". These are merely terms used to describe stages of human development. They are not meant to diminish the taxonomic status enjoyed by the unborn.

    I think instead of talking about "zygotes" or "unborn babies" we should simply concentrate on humans or the unborn. Either term is acceptable and does not engender overly-emotional or unduly diminutive connotations.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Some do.

    But let's say everyone agrees the fetus is human. You make my argument for me. You're saying they agree the fetus is human, yet claim that human isn't a person. As I say above, what's the only reason you'd deny a human is a person? To justify an evil practice.
    Hardly. Personhood is so much more than a double helix with the same repeating base pairs.

    But I am not concerned about the personhood argument as much as I am about moral consequence. You take nothing from the fetuse before it reaches the stage in its morphological development required for spatial awareness to even be a possibility. If it doesn't have a functioning central nervous system, it has no concept of self and no ability to feel, desire, hurt...nothing. There is no moral consequence to the termination of a pregnancy in these instances.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Hardly. Personhood is so much more than a double helix with the same repeating base pairs.
    Such as? When is a human being not a person?

    But I am not concerned about the personhood argument as much as I am about moral consequence. You take nothing from the fetuse before it reaches the stage in its morphological development required for spatial awareness to even be a possibility. If it doesn't have a functioning central nervous system, it has no concept of self and no ability to feel, desire, hurt...nothing. There is no moral consequence to the termination of a pregnancy in these instances.
    If that's how you have to justify it.

    But it's not like abortion is illegal at the point where a central nervous system is developed and feeling pain possible.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Such as? When is a human being not a person?
    Personhood is a legal construction. I guess before a human being has a birth certificate it wouldn't be a person. That is irrelevant, however.

    If that's how you have to justify it.
    I don't have to justify it. Blackmun justified it in his ruling many years ago.

    But it's not like abortion is illegal at the point where a central nervous system is developed and feeling pain possible.
    And that is where I split with most pro-choicers. I think it should be.

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