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Thread: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

  1. #91
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Fore the record, as I believe it was mentioned earlier, I just read that the doctor is under criminal investigation so the assumption that this is all just for show and nothing will be done was clearly incorrect.
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Ala factcheck.org

    Obama and 'Infanticide'

    Whether opposing "born alive" legislation is the same as supporting "infanticide," however, is entirely a matter of interpretation. That could be true only for those, such as Obama's 2004 Republican opponent, Alan Keyes, who believe a fetus that doctors give no chance of surviving is an "infant." It is worth noting that Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support."
    Earlier versions of the bill, in 2001 and 2002, had met with opposition from abortion-rights groups, which contended that they would be used to challenge Roe v. Wade. Because the bills accorded human rights to pre-viable fetuses (that is, fetuses that could not live outside the womb) as long as they showed some vital signs outside the mother, abortion-rights groups saw them as the thin edge of a wedge that could be used to pry apart legal rights to abortion. Obama stated this objection on the Senate floor in discussion of both bills.
    Obama’s campaign now has a different explanation for his vote against the 2003 Illinois bill. Even with the same wording as the federal law, the Obama camp says, the state bill would have a different effect than the BAIPA would have at the federal level. It's state law, not federal law, that actually regulates the practice of abortion. So a bill defining a pre-viable fetus born as the result of abortion as a human could directly affect the practice of abortion at the state level, but not at the federal level, the campaign argues.
    What we can say is that many other people – perhaps most – think of "infanticide" as the killing of an infant that would otherwise live. And there are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion.
    Last edited by Indy; 02-06-09 at 11:23 PM.
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Now I will be fair to your side and concede that what he said on the floor and what he said later on in interviews and such do not overlay perfectly but I don't really think they contradict each other, and actually complement each other. To turn this into a "oh my god Obama is okay with killing babies" is ludicrous.
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Now I will be fair to your side and concede that what he said on the floor and what he said later on in interviews and such do not overlay perfectly but I don't really think they contradict each other, and actually complement each other. To turn this into a "oh my god Obama is okay with killing babies" is ludicrous.
    Still, he voted present on something that pertained to exactly the situation we are discussing in this thread. He was confident that abortion clinic drs. would "do the right thing" in the event of an accidental birth when it's been shown repeatedly that they often don't. The confidence Obama seems to have for the abortion drs. in clinics is misplaced and wrong IMO.

    Also I cringed when Obama talked about how the human might come out possibly moving vs. dead and this in no way means it's viable and deserving of any care or treatment.

    Freaking disgraceful business, abortion.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Still, he voted present on something that pertained to exactly the situation we are discussing in this thread. He was confident that abortion clinic drs. would "do the right thing" in the event of an accidental birth when it's been shown repeatedly that they often don't. The confidence Obama seems to have for the abortion drs. in clinics is misplaced and wrong IMO.
    Could you please explain what you are getting at here? I thought I just showed that he wasn't relying on doctors to make the right choice because the law already existed. How is that relying on doctors instead of relying on the law?

    *Disclaimer: My wife and I would not get an abortion, nor do I think it is all that great of a practice, but on the other hand I can accept that some people are forced into situations where it is necessary. Yes, people abuse it and they SHOULD face criminal charges but a decree that ALL abortion is illegal is way over the line.
    Last edited by Indy; 02-07-09 at 03:15 PM.
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Could you please explain what you are getting at here? I thought I just showed that he wasn't relying on doctors to make the right choice because the law already existed. How is that relying on doctors instead of relying on the law?

    *Disclaimer: My wife and I would not get an abortion, nor do I think it is all that great of a practice, but on the other hand I can accept that some people are forced into situations where it is necessary. Yes, people abuse it and they SHOULD face criminal charges but a decree that ALL abortion is illegal is way over the line.
    If you listen to what Obama said in his opposition speech on the senate floor he opposed the piece of the legislation which would require an abortionist to bring in an attending physician in the event of an accidental life birth and allow the attending to make a decision regarding viability. He insinuated it was an unnecessary burden because Obama was confident it was unnecessary. In the case of live births the original abortion dr. would see that the right care was given.

    Clearly, as this case demonstrates, he was wrong.

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Hardly. Personhood is so much more than a double helix with the same repeating base pairs.

    But I am not concerned about the personhood argument as much as I am about moral consequence. You take nothing from the fetuse before it reaches the stage in its morphological development required for spatial awareness to even be a possibility. If it doesn't have a functioning central nervous system, it has no concept of self and no ability to feel, desire, hurt...nothing. There is no moral consequence to the termination of a pregnancy in these instances.



    Isn't that at about 8 weeks?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    If you listen to what Obama said in his opposition speech on the senate floor he opposed the piece of the legislation which would require an abortionist to bring in an attending physician in the event of an accidental life birth and allow the attending to make a decision regarding viability. He insinuated it was an unnecessary burden because Obama was confident it was unnecessary. In the case of live births the original abortion dr. would see that the right care was given.

    Clearly, as this case demonstrates, he was wrong.
    Ok, I'll agree with that. I don't think that it means that he is pro late term abortion though, that is a stretch.

    So can we agree that Obama's argument on the senate floor was flawed, and could have been made much better (following the lines of reasoning I've posted before), but he is not in favor of killing babies and doesn't hold extremist views?
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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Wrong!

    The right wing is hard at work building slippery slopes again....


    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    This is precisely what Obama supported when he opposed that Illinois state Born Alive Act. This is what the pro-abortionists approve of. Remember, this baby really wasn't a baby, not a human being, just a collection of cells with dubious human characteristics.

    Didn't anyone see the stories of babies surviving attempted abortions being set aside in custodial rooms, on counters, and in closets to die?

    I hope no one is shocked by this...there's a massive group of people in this country that don't have a problem with this because, again, this wasn't a baby, not a human, just a collection of cells that just happened to fall out and that should otherwise be available for medical research...

    What a sick, sick world, eh?

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    Re: Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Ok, I'll agree with that. I don't think that it means that he is pro late term abortion though, that is a stretch.

    So can we agree that Obama's argument on the senate floor was flawed, and could have been made much better (following the lines of reasoning I've posted before), but he is not in favor of killing babies and doesn't hold extremist views?
    Obviously I'll agree his argument on the senate floor was flawed. As for the extremist views -I don't know. He did say he was confident that any dr. performing an abortion would make the right choice regarding viability and treatment in the event of a live birth. However he also did say that just because an infant is moving ie not dead doesn't mean it's viable and he insinuated that in cases of abortions the babies are never viable because if they were the abortion dr. wouldn't have agreed to do an abortion in the first place. I consider that circular logic pretty extremist. I certainly wouldn't consider Obama a reasonable moderate on abortion like Jallman.

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