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Thread: Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's not what you were talking about. And if it was, you did not at all make it clear.
    Renditions themselves are not illegal.


    But...


    Renditions to countries where there is reasonable suspicion that the person will be tortured (Egypt, Syria) is.


    Does that help?

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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Renditions themselves are not illegal.


    But...


    Renditions to countries where there is reasonable suspicion that the person will be tortured (Egypt, Syria) is.


    Does that help?
    Really. Give me an example of a legal extraordinary rendition. Because that's what we're talking about here, not judicial renditions.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    the audacity of hope is right.

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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    We're not party to OPCAT, so I guess inspections are out of the question.
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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Give me an example of a legal extraordinary rendition.
    Ok. This is legal:

    The U.S. transfers a Gitmo detainee to Britain.

    This is illegal:

    The U.S. transfers a Gitmo detainee to Syria, where there are reasonable grounds to believe he might be tortured.

    That was easy.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that extraordinary (non-judicial) rendition is illegal. Driving your car to the store is non-judicial and yet perfectly legal. Non-judicial just means there is no law or court order that says it must be done (as the case with extradition).

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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Ok. This is legal:

    The U.S. transfers a Gitmo detainee to Britain.

    This is illegal:

    The U.S. transfers a Gitmo detainee to Syria, where there are reasonable grounds to believe he might be tortured.

    That was easy.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that extraordinary (non-judicial) rendition is illegal. Driving your car to the store is non-judicial and yet perfectly legal. Non-judicial just means there is no law or court order that says it must be done (as the case with extradition).
    US transfers a Gitmo detainee to Syria where he is celebrated by Osama bin Laden
    That's legal.

    US transfers Gitmo detainee to a British pub, where he is force to drink many adult beverages resulting in the detainee babbling al Qaeda plans.

    That's illegal.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama shuts Gitmo but expands renditions

    There was just a story on Rachel Maddow's show about this. It is believed the quote to LA Times came from a Bush holdover, that Obama has expressly rejected extraordinary rendition, but that rendition itself dates at least to the Reagan era, and is the process that made it possible for Israel to snatch Eichmann from Argentina to stand trial in Jerusalem.

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    Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

    Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool - Los Angeles Times


    The role of the CIA's controversial prisoner-transfer program may expand, intelligence experts say.


    The CIA's secret prisons are being shuttered. Harsh interrogation techniques are off-limits. And Guantanamo Bay will eventually go back to being a wind-swept naval base on the southeastern corner of Cuba.

    But even while dismantling these programs, President Obama left intact an equally controversial counter-terrorism tool.

    Under executive orders issued by Obama recently, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the United States.


    Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said that the rendition program might be poised to play an expanded role going forward because it was the main remaining mechanism -- aside from Predator missile strikes -- for taking suspected terrorists off the street.

    The rendition program became a source of embarrassment for the CIA, and a target of international scorn, as details emerged in recent years of botched captures, mistaken identities and allegations that prisoners were turned over to countries where they were tortured.

    The European Parliament condemned renditions as "an illegal instrument used by the United States." Prisoners swept up in the program have sued the CIA as well as a Boeing Co. subsidiary accused of working with the agency on dozens of rendition flights.

    But the Obama administration appears to have determined that the rendition program was one component of the Bush administration's war on terrorism that it could not afford to discard
    .
    And it just keeps on coming. Perhaps Obama really was a moderate in liberal's clothing.

    For those of you who demanded (and still demand) that Bush be sent to the Hague to be tried for war crimes such as this - should we send Obama too?

    And if you really want to laugh, compare the stance of Human Rights Watch under Bush to its stance under Obama:

    Under Bush, HRW declared that:

    The US government should:

    Repudiate the use of rendition to torture as a counterterrorism tactic and permanently discontinue the CIA's rendition program;

    Disclose the identities, fate, and current whereabouts of all persons detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody by the CIA since 2001, including detainees who were rendered to Jordan;

    Repudiate the use of "diplomatic assurances" against torture and ill-treatment as a justification for the transfer of a suspect to a place where he or she is at risk of such abuse;

    Make public any audio recordings or videotapes that the CIA possesses of interrogations of detainees rendered by the CIA to foreign custody;

    Provide appropriate compensation to all persons arbitrarily detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody (emphasis added).
    Human Rights Watch rightfully opposed the practice of torture by the Bush administration, but it also demanded the cessation of rendition and that victims of the practice receive compensation.

    The organization's recommendations went even farther, however. In order to make sure that the program ended, Human Rights Watch recommended that other countries should:
    Refuse to cooperate in secret detention and rendition efforts, and disclose all information about past cooperation in such efforts (emphasis added).
    Given that these are incredibly important issues and moral imperatives, one would assume that their stance would remain firm under Obama, right?


    The decision to preserve the program did not draw major protests, even among human rights groups. Leaders of such organizations attribute that to a sense that nations need certain tools to combat terrorism.

    "Under limited circumstances, there is a legitimate place" for renditions, said Tom Malinowski, the Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.
    "What I heard loud and clear from the president's order was that they want to design a system that doesn't result in people being sent to foreign dungeons to be tortured -- but that designing that system is going to take some time."
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    Re: Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

    The Democratic Party knows that a true liberal cannot possibly win an election.

    centrism is where it's at. Any other option and you're a tree-huger, or a fascist.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    The Democratic Party knows that a true liberal cannot possibly win an election.

    centrism is where it's at. Any other option and you're a tree-huger, or a fascist.
    It's socialist. Fascism is a right wing ideology. Jonah Goldberg is full of crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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