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Thread: Pakistan:43 Civilians die in Taliban crossfire

  1. #11
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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    As I noted, my response is conditional. IF President Bush is deemed a war criminal, THEN so too should President Obama. IF President Bush is deemed not a war criminal, THEN neither should President Obama for his actions thus far.
    Well I guess Bush and Obama aren't war criminals then are they, so quit spreading that around if you want to be taken seriously. No U.S. court is ever gonna convict Bush.

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Pakistan: 43 civilians die in Taliban crossfire - CNN.com



    If you were President Obama what would you do about this? How would you go about either demanding Pakistan to succumb to you running sorties, and positioning troops 100 miles into Pakistan territory, or demanding that Pakistan did more in an effort to rid the region of the Taliban?
    If I was the President I'd try and reduce the amount of foreign wars and entanglements I got my nation into.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    No, the problem we have is with the tenets of faith that are integral to Islam. Make note of Islam's Bloody Borders.
    Is "Bloody Borders" some sort of literature? Or a section of the Kuran?

    I don't understand why you consider Islam a faith of destruction, but you are not saying the same thing for Christianity. Both faiths have extremist wings who wish for the death of innocent people, in the veil of their religion. To truly understand religion one must first understand that religions are not about destruction, but about bringing together. They are not to dismantle, they are to explain why things are the way they are. They are the sciences before there was "science".
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Is "Bloody Borders" some sort of literature? Or a section of the Kuran?

    I don't understand why you consider Islam a faith of destruction, but you are not saying the same thing for Christianity. Both faiths have extremist wings who wish for the death of innocent people, in the veil of their religion. To truly understand religion one must first understand that religions are not about destruction, but about bringing together. They are not to dismantle, they are to explain why things are the way they are. They are the sciences before there was "science".
    Do we have to go through this "Islam is violent" "so is Xtianity" bull**** again? It is so boring.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Do we have to go through this "Islam is violent" "so is Xtianity" bull**** again? It is so boring.
    Of course not, but making accusations that "they are different because their faith makes it so" is pretty lame in my opinion. It is sorta like saying the Crusades is the representation of the Christian faith, when it was just people wanting land and all sorts of land at that.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Is "Bloody Borders" some sort of literature? Or a section of the Kuran?
    Bloody borders refers to the ring of violent uprising and terrorism that overlaps areas, coincidently I'm sure, where Islam is intersecting with other religions.

    I don't understand why you consider Islam a faith of destruction, but you are not saying the same thing for Christianity.
    Because my argument isn't contingent on the extremist expression of faith. This viewpoint is often constructed upon a false equivalence by people who think that the tenets of Islam are basically just like the tenets of Christianity, but with some minor, inconsequential variations. For instance, Christianity is built on the separation of religious life from non-religious life, but Islam is not. That has very far reaching implications as Islamic voices begin to be heard in a Democratic society. Another point of difference:
    Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ??????, irtidad or ridda?) is commonly defined as the rejection in word or deed of their former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam.

    The four major Sunni Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) and the Twelver Shi'a Jafari madhab agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate - some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi'i interpreted the Qu'ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]

    A minority of medieval Islamic jurists, such as Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi,[4] Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji, and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah,[5] and some contemporary Islamic jurists, such as Shafi`i Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[6][7] and Shi'a Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[8] argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.
    This isn't an extremist vision of Islam, this is mainstream Islam.

    Both faiths have extremist wings who wish for the death of innocent people, in the veil of their religion.
    This is an argument not driven by facts, but by the desire to construct an argumentative framework which advances the goal of equivalence.

    To truly understand religion one must first understand that religions are not about destruction, but about bringing together.
    Again, this is a position that is not grounded in scholarship, or not completely, for you are correct that Islam would very much like to bring the world together, with the proviso that everyone is following Islam. Short of that, no, you're incorrect.

    After 9/11 the most striking non-event for me was the utter lack of patriotic spirit that didn't materialize from Muslim Americans. When Japanese-Americans in WWII were seen as not assimilating to American values we saw the formation of:
    The 442nd Infantry, formerly the 442nd Regimental Combat Team of the United States Army, was an Asian American unit composed of mostly Japanese Americans who fought in Europe during the Second World War.[1] The families of many of its soldiers were subject to internment. The 442nd was a self-sufficient fighting force, and fought with uncommon distinction in Italy, southern France, and Germany. The unit became the most highly decorated military unit in the history of the United States Armed Forces, including 21 Medal of Honor recipients, earning the nickname “The Purple Heart Battalion.”
    What do Americans see from out Muslim-American citizens? Vocal support for their religious compatriots in other lands taking precedence over support for American foreign policy goals. In fact, in Patterson, NJ we saw video of Muslims dancing joyously at the sight of the towers falling.

    Sure, a good deal of the blame for this falls on multicultural fetishists who "celebrate diversity" and view strong assimilative customs as barbaric, but if these are the new rules of our modern era, then we're looking at fundamental incompatibilities between Western values and those held by religious Muslims.

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    War criminal? Did he topple the Pakistani government? So Riverdad, with your comments you are in support of Bush being hanged right? I mean you don't want to be considered a hypocrite right?

    Just saying.
    Just saying. You don't have to overthrow a government to be a war criminal. The point to YOU liberals is that you live in a glass house.
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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Well I guess Bush and Obama aren't war criminals then are they, so quit spreading that around if you want to be taken seriously. No U.S. court is ever gonna convict Bush.
    Oh, so now they're not war criminals. Well maybe you should notify brotha Conyers.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Just saying. You don't have to overthrow a government to be a war criminal. The point to YOU liberals is that you live in a glass house.
    Funny I have never called Bush a war criminal. However Bush made many many mistakes and the one was called Iraq. Does it make him a war criminal? Nope I've sen the U.N. Resolutions. Does it make him incompetent? Yep, it does given the intelligence he went upon.

    I blame Bush for being incompetent on Iraq.

    I blame the U.N. for giving the resolution allowing Bush to do something so stupid.

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    Re: Into Pakistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Pakistan: 43 civilians die in Taliban crossfire - CNN.com



    If you were President Obama what would you do about this? How would you go about either demanding Pakistan to succumb to you running sorties, and positioning troops 100 miles into Pakistan territory, or demanding that Pakistan did more in an effort to rid the region of the Taliban?
    GWB got many things right (about terrorism and the war on same),but deserves the 18% approval rateing he left office with,for haveing sex with the MONEY WHORES who brought down our ecconomy.The details of...,"WE will go where ever they crawl around and hide in", includes places they crawl around and hide in. Pakistan and their government have been reasonable about letting our special ops guys go after these terrorists who are messing things up for Pakistanies too. Pakistan has an imperfect government, just like us, but they know a good business arangement when they see it. Good relations with an economicly broken country are worth saveing...,for better days. There are other god forsaken countries that would react less favorably than Pakistan has...Thank you to the Government of Pakistan ,for letting us go after the scumbag terrorists ,without to much grief.
    Last edited by Rodney; 02-02-09 at 10:37 AM.

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