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Thread: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

  1. #31
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    You consider him to be a very pro-US, I consider him to be anti-the US. As you are concerned about ‘’the decline of real democracy and the enhancement of "circus politics exploitation of the dumb" democracy’’ I am concerned about the same things in the country I live and love, - the one I want to be the greatest in the world, - the US.


    Recently I attended a party with a number of older former Soviet citizens and now Americans. One of them asked to shut off Obama TV because “ I had enough of this in the USSR”, and others agreed – yes, it is like in the USSR. I am mostly concerned about the US turning into the USSR, about the stupid notion that we are Americans, nothing can happen here, - well it is already happening. This country used to stand against the worst evil – Communism spread by the USSR. The USSR undertook tremendous efforts of spreading the ideas Communism stands on in the West and in the US, and now the West and the US are falling to these ideas, when Russia is recovering from them and rejecting them. It is not that I am pro-Russian, I am pro-American, as it used to be the land of brave and free, the country which invented Ford T, rock-n-roll, Corvette, the right to bear arm, in God we trust, Windows, Apple and freedom of pursuit of happiness, the country Soviets used to defect to from the oppression of Communism.

    He is not pro-US, not at all,

    I like ‘’all the morons of our societies’’ characterization.
    Actually, I get mistaken as an anti-American, when all I want is to raise awareness of the general political and economical problems and flaws.. We have the same problem as the US in many European countries, especially in my home nation Norway, its actually even getting worse than America when it comes to circus politics and such. My other nation France the situation is getting quite severe, yet not as severe as in the US and the UK with the issues described in the last post, but its slowly deteriorating.

    Huge worry, and people cheer this stupidity..

    I want informational politics, serious politics, live broadcasts from political institutions, transparency and new reformed political models that weed out these bad things and the huge corruption problems we have in politics these days, not only regular corruption, but intellectual corruption.
    Are you 100% American btw?
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 02-02-09 at 04:41 PM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'm just as sure you're the only one.
    If you walk in couples or call yourself 'we, Goobieman', then I should look like the only one for you.

    justone

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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Vladimir Putins Fascist Russia is going to flex it muscles in the coming years and Obama and the various European States will bend to his tune in most if not all cases.

    Russia is the power in Europe now and will be for at least the next 10 years. Vladimir Putins ambitions will dictate how the future of Europe goes.

    I expect the Ukraine will be treated like Czechoslovakia was in 38. I do not expect the USA or Europe to have any backbone against a Russia willing to use force.

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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Actually, I get mistaken as an anti-American, when all I want is to raise awareness of the general political and economical problems and flaws.. We have the same problem as the US in many European countries, especially in my home nation Norway, its actually even getting worse than America when it comes to circus politics and such. My other nation France the situation is getting quite severe, yet not as severe as in the US and the UK with the issues described in the last post, but its slowly deteriorating.

    Huge worry, and people cheer this stupidity..

    I want informational politics, serious politics, live broadcasts from political institutions, transparency and new reformed political models that weed out these bad things and the huge corruption problems we have in politics these days, not only regular corruption, but intellectual corruption.
    Are you 100% American btw?
    Like they say in Russia ’one’s own shirts feels closer to one’s body’ (than somebody’s else shirt). I feel like the US problems are worse than Norwegian and French. For me it is given that you have to rot in socialism*. But the same perspective here - when the US which is given to be the land of free, voluntarily and happily elects slavery and self-destruction - makes me really worried, I mean horrified.

    I have citizenship of the only one country – the US. I was not born in the US. I run here for religious and natural freedoms.



    *.
    Last edited by justone; 02-02-09 at 07:53 PM.

  5. #35
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Anti-Russian, but pro-reality. The missile shield in Europe has no effect whatsoever on Russian deterrent, and the Russians know it..
    Why not put the shield in NATO country Turkey instead? Its a much better fit for location. Why just go ahead with the plans without bringing Russia in on them and negotiating with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes.. threatening nuclear war over a missle system that doesnt affect you is a --brilliant-- idea.


    Of course, the Russians understand they are dealing with countries led by milktoast, and so maybe their baseless sabre-rattling will benefit them.
    Lets see what the US does if Russia places missiles on Cuba to protect it from Mexico.. Doesn't affect the US, since Russia already have tons of missiles pointed at the US..

    You people just cannot see things from any other perspective than your own, thats what is wrong.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  6. #36
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Either you have no clue or you are trying to twist facts. Most likely the latter is true, - judging from the tone, composition and meaning of your reply. If you have no clue, you may try to educate yourself a bit and then I would fill in blanks, if needed; your path of twisting, cherry picking and misrepresenting facts as well as putting up a strawman is boring, to say at least.
    You sound a lot like several other people here who know they are wrong and try to change the subject away from their own failures to personal attacks on the person who proved them wrong.

    If I'm so wrong, it should be a piece of cake for you to prove it. Or you should just keep pretending that I'm wrong and hope I never badger you into proving your accusations.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Anti-Russian, but pro-reality. The missile shield in Europe has no effect whatsoever on Russian deterrent, and the Russians know it.
    At the current moment. But everyone knows that equipment over time gets better. What we should do is halt the program which undermines public support in Russia for massive weapons programs. Putin's been faking outrage over the system to allocate huge sums of money towards new weapons systems. They know that we can't stop 10 missiles much less a 100. Hell, given our hit rates, it's unlikely we can even stop a salvo of 4 missiles. Still, Putin's doing his job well in feinting anger.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  8. #38
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Perhaps you arent 100% blindly pro-American, but you are pretty blind to reality about it, democracy especially in the US is becoming a sham, a joke. And democracy in general gives the people no actual power, it does in some ways reflect their will when you have elections. But then again, their votes are controlled by the media and the parties and all of their lies to gain the votes and so on, and the whole circus election bull**** in the US especially, thats not healthy democracy at all in my opinion, and your blind pro-US stand, will probably make you angry at me for saying so, and deny that reality, like it always does when I say things arent perfect in the US, or even Europe when it comes to democracy. I love the thought of a functioning democracy, but I hate the way democracy is in the US in particular right now, but also most parts of Europe.
    I never said the US democracy was perfect. However, the US system as well as those in most of Western Europe, an increasing amount of central and Eastern Europe as well as some East Asian democracies gives people far more rights and freedoms than some of the regimes you defend, especially Russia and Georgia. I don't have to read US or other Western media to know what is happening in Russia. I only have to talk with people who have LEFT Russia because the promise of democracy and freedom has been destroyed by Czar Putin.

    Russia felt differently just like the US felt differently about Iraq.. So they went in, no difference there. At least those regions are happy now, and got rid of the "suppressive regime"..
    Except that those regions were part of Georgia. This was agreed on my Russia in the 90s and were the internationally recognized boundaries of Georgia. This bears NO comparison with Iraq at all. Iraq was a regime that was the subject of something like a couple of dozen UNSC Resolutions against it, all authorizing the use of force via its reference in Res 678 and the clause "all subsequent relevant resolutions."

    Did you know the leader of Georgia is a democratic elected maniac just like the leader of Iran. Complete mental case, just like Ahmedinajan.
    On what basis do you regard the leader of Georgia as a manic? Because he wants to ensure the territorial integrity of his country

    And now there is peace and not intra or any other Georgia conflict. The murder of their own people has stopped.
    Who was responsible for the "murder" of the people? Any state has the legal right to protect its territorial integrity, including from irrendentist and sepratist movements. Russia's actions in Georgia and tearing the territories away violate Georgia's territorial integrity and are a clear violation of international law. I hope the government in Tblisi makes a case regarding this before the ICJ because Russia is clearly in the wrong.

    Lol, none of them justifies war.. You know this, you can be as technical as you want, but you also know there was no security council approval for the war, and you also know France didn't join your war efforts because of it.
    All of them authorize it through 678. Russia had no such authorization regarding Georgia.


    Of course they are not aimed at Russia, but then why was Russia not brought in on the plans and for approval of the system? What if Russia placed missiles in Cuba to defend them from any potential attacks? What if they placed a missile defense system in south and central America to protect those states from Cuba?
    Because this was a U.S-NATO operation. The US actually offerred to cooperate with Russia, but the Russians declined.

    You know the politics of the missile shield is shady, and the US broke the anti ballistic missile treaty over it, which is another point Russia is trying to make if you arent so blindly pro-American.
    Russia, as the USSR, violated the treaty back in the 70s. It is a moot point.

    I know better than that, but do you know where to find neutral ground when the news and the politics is about the US, or any of its perceived "enemies", or do you then blindly listen to US politics against those enemies, or do you indeed listen to what those "enemies" are saying? And in general you do take a very anti-Russian stand, and a very pro-US stand, and of course you do have the incredibly blind anti-Iranian stand to think of, which I think is the result of listening ONLY to the US side about things, JUST like your president do not even negotiate with Iranian politicians, a retarded way of conducting politics by your previous regime.
    I take a very anti-Russian stand because I support democracy and human rights. Russia is a major violator of human rights and is a sham democracy at best.

    Mexico and Texas and the US? Wow.. Yo for once showed a neutral way of thinking rather than blind pro-US way like you always have on this forum, and 90% of the people on this forum have?
    This is not the only time I have taken a position against the US government - only the most recent.

    Why arent you critical of the poor way democracy is developing in the west, the decline of real democracy and the enhancement of "circus politics exploitation of the dumb" democracy? Do you really want political elections to be about everything except politics?
    I have never said that Western Democracy is perfect. Far from. However, it is the best system we have going right now. Nothing that involves human beings is perfect as we are inherently sinful. We can't help that. However, when I compare the representative republics of the West, they are far better in their preservation of human, political, and legal rights than countries like Iran, Russia, and China.

    Do you really want politics do matter less than drama, scandals, tv facing time and so on? Do you want money and who has it be the most important part of an election? Do you find the two party system a functioning system? Increased political and social polarization and so on.. All these things is also increasingly happening in European democracies, and I find it horrific. I dont want so sound like a grumpy old man, but elections should definetely not be about fun and entertainment, like it has become, to accommodate all the morons of our societies.
    Of course I do, but at the same time, I also enjoy having a choice, something people in Russia do NOT have.

    Elections should be about politics strictly, and everyone should have the same sponsored money to run their platform and media should be less involved.
    No argument there. That does not mean that Russia and Iran do it better. Far from.

    Definitely, even Japanese seems easy in comparison.. I did try some basics of both just to get a feel, and Chinese was just incredibly difficult, even in the beginning, Japanese was comprehensible and learnable.
    But then again, I do want to learn Chinese some time, when I have the time and dedication for it, I refuse to give that up. Perhaps Japanese could be a stepping stone?
    For speaking, it is not a good stepping stone for while there is some common vocabulary and writing, they are not even in the same language family. The two languages have very different grammars. When I started learning Mandarin, I thought my high school study of Japanese would help. Only with some of the writing - definately not with the speaking.

    Regardless of what you try to do with it, good luck. Both languages are endlessly facinating.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    I just want to address one thing that you have me misunderstood on, and a few other basic concepts..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludahai
    I never said the US democracy was perfect. However, the US system as well as those in most of Western Europe, an increasing amount of central and Eastern Europe as well as some East Asian democracies gives people far more rights and freedoms than some of the regimes you defend, especially Russia and Georgia. I don't have to read US or other Western media to know what is happening in Russia. I only have to talk with people who have LEFT Russia because the promise of democracy and freedom has been destroyed by Czar Putin.
    I do NOT defend Russia, and DEFINITELY not Georgia. I only defend Russia when people on this forum attack it from a blind pro-US stand and a blind anti-Russia stand, because the debate as such is very skewed and wrong. I just want to find the middle ground, the realistic ground, and debate from there, else its uninteresting. I dont support Russia in many ways, only a few ways, like when they demonstrated against the US and "put their foot" down, and basically told the US they cannot go on like they are without risking nuclear war with Russia. Yes, nuclear war is horrible, but used as a bargaining tool of changing the way US foreign policy has been conducted over the past decade, did gain my approval. Also I do like the intellect of Russian political leadership..

    I dont approve of Georgia at all, I think their president is a nutcase on the same line as the Iranian president. If you do not believe me, watch all his English tv appearances and you will undoubtfully see that as well.

    All of them authorize it through 678. Russia had no such authorization regarding Georgia.
    The US had no support to invade and conduct war in Iraq, you KNOW this. If you do not know it you watch too much US media, where they try to make it out that its justified with technicalities. If the Iraq war had been approved by the security council, then I am sure France would have come along, do you not think so? Being an ally of the US and having approved the Iraq war in the security council?
    You know all the controversy and that the US jumped on a technicality and went to war with Iraq, they did NOT have the approval of the security council to do so. If you rewing to the time and the news of the time, you will know this.

    BBC NEWS | UK | Politics | Action against Iraq 'illegal'
    BBC NEWS | Europe | Schroeder defends stance on Iraq
    BBC NEWS | Europe | Germany makes plea to prevent war
    BBC NEWS | Europe | France's veto conundrum
    BBC NEWS | Europe | France stance on Iraq hardens

    You know all this stuff, that there was NO approval for Iraq war. That there was a technical resolution about Iraq and defensive attack, genocide and so on, and that the US used this clause and lied about WMDs and preemptive attack and so on to go to Iraq.. If you do not know this story and every controversy surrounding it, then its no doubt in my mind that the US media is brainwashing its people on the orders of the US government.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Germany and France where opposed for various reasons. Not one simple reason and many of them not good or moral but simply greedy and self aggrandizing.

    Much of the rest of Europe was not opposed and supported the invasion directly. Some such as the UK directly taking part in the invasion. Some such as Spain, Poland, Italy, etc, etc took part in the in the aftermath of the invasion..many still have troops in Iraq and most of those who have withdrawn troops are still involved in various ways.

    The majority of European states is in Iraq in one form or another. The minority sat it out completely.



    IOW-


    The US had no support to invade and conduct war in Iraq, you KNOW this.
    This is a false statement...and if know as much as you claim then you know its false as well.

    Or someones gotten into your head and filled it up with poo.
    Last edited by Triad; 02-03-09 at 09:38 AM.

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