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Thread: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

  1. #21
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Whats your problem with anything else than the US and democracy? Do you think only the US and democracy is "right"? Russia went to Georgia to help the breakaway regions and avoid Georgian military suppression of those regions.
    I love democracy and the rights of the people. It doesn't have to be U.S. style democracy, though I do believe it is preferable to the Parliamentary system. I prefer systems that reflect the will of the people and grant civil and political rights to citizens and legal residents of the country. When comparing GEorgia and Russia on this score, while Georgia has a ways to go, it is clearly superior to Russia.

    Those "breakaway regions" were legal parts of Georgian territory as recognized by the international community and were its borders at the time of the break-up of the Soviet Union. How would Russia like foreign troops getting involved in the multitude of areas in Russia with ethnic minorities just itching to break away from the Russian bear.

    The situation with the breakaway regions in Georgia and intra Georgian conflict was getting out of hand. Russia going there without the approval of the security council was a strong signal to the US that if they have those right, Russia will also have those rights. Georgia was in military conflict with those regions, Russia stopped that, and let the people have their independence as they wanted, from the horrible regime in Tiblisi.
    It was an INTRA-Georgian conflict. Russia went in and has now effectively taken away two parts of Georgia, including nearly one half of its coastline.


    Your memory is clearly flawed, there was no approval in the security council for a war in Iraq. The Us effectively made the security council invalid, and thus allowing Russia the freedom to also take unilateral actions like the US did in Iraq.
    Read UNSC resolutions 678 and 1441 VERY CLOSELY! Then, come back to me.

    Perhaps it also time then for Europe to reconsider their relations with the US, since they are also not respect international norms.
    See aforementioned comments. Kind of funny considering how there were some European countries involved in that action.

    Are you sure about that? What if the US manufactured the missile shield issue? They were the ones who took the first steps and most likely to be the ones manufacturing the issue if anyone did that.. Why are you so blindly favorable for the US and to blindly against Russia? I am only trying to be rational here and say "open your eyes, Russia is not all bad, and the US is not all good".
    You are being silly now. As for the missiles in Poland, those are CLEARLy aimed at a rogue regime with a very small number of missiles. Even if they were targeted at RUssia, the sheer number of Russian missiles could overwhelm such a modest system. Furthermore, the DEFENSIVE missiles would have had NO impact on missiles targeting the US as they would cross the polar Great Circle route to North America.

    Is the US all good? You know better than that. I have been critical of the US when I think they are wrong. Check out the thread on the ICJ decision on the MExicans and the State of Texas. I came squarely against the US and Texas on that thread.

    What would the US feel if Russia placed missile shields in Cuba? Or again placed missiles there?
    For what states purpose, to shield Cuba against Venezuelan missiles?


    Lol.. I would love to learn Mandarine Chinese.. Actually I will embark on it some years from now. But having English as a main language on this forum do not mean we have to be blindly pro-US and blindly anti everything that is not like the US.
    And if you look at my full body of posts, I am NOT always blindly pro-US. I am critical of the US and any other democracy WHEN I THINK IT IS WARRENTED. However, I am not going to blindly attack the US or any other democracy when it is NOT WARRENTED. Fair enough?

    As for Chinese, it is a hard language to learn, especially the writing. But it is endlessly fascinating.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Non response signifying he has nothing to say and can't accept the facts - AS USUAL!
    You just quoted me and then you say – non-response.

    What did you quote, if not the response?


    And what facts are you talking about? Lies= half truth and verbal fallacies are not facts.

  3. #23
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    The status de-juro does not change de-facto even a bit.
    Let's see

    Did Georgia have a mutual security pact with NATO members?

    No.

    Did Georgia routinely practice with NATO members?

    No.

    Was Georgia included in meetings with NATO members?

    No.

    Was Georgia privy to the intelligence shared between NATO members?

    No.

    Did NATO members aside from the US suggest any direct military aid?

    No.

    What de-facto state are you talking about?

    Try again. And learn what NATO does and what membership includes.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  4. #24
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    When you keep pushing the borders of your influence and membership right up to the borders of such a large and important state as Russia what do you expect? They are going to be pissed off.

    NATO, if it is still relevant, should have more sense and stick to its own area. It is classic balance of power stuff.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #25
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I love democracy and the rights of the people. It doesn't have to be U.S. style democracy, though I do believe it is preferable to the Parliamentary system. I prefer systems that reflect the will of the people and grant civil and political rights to citizens and legal residents of the country. When comparing GEorgia and Russia on this score, while Georgia has a ways to go, it is clearly superior to Russia.
    Perhaps you arent 100% blindly pro-American, but you are pretty blind to reality about it, democracy especially in the US is becoming a sham, a joke. And democracy in general gives the people no actual power, it does in some ways reflect their will when you have elections. But then again, their votes are controlled by the media and the parties and all of their lies to gain the votes and so on, and the whole circus election bull**** in the US especially, thats not healthy democracy at all in my opinion, and your blind pro-US stand, will probably make you angry at me for saying so, and deny that reality, like it always does when I say things arent perfect in the US, or even Europe when it comes to democracy. I love the thought of a functioning democracy, but I hate the way democracy is in the US in particular right now, but also most parts of Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Those "breakaway regions" were legal parts of Georgian territory as recognized by the international community and were its borders at the time of the break-up of the Soviet Union. How would Russia like foreign troops getting involved in the multitude of areas in Russia with ethnic minorities just itching to break away from the Russian bear.
    Russia felt differently just like the US felt differently about Iraq.. So they went in, no difference there. At least those regions are happy now, and got rid of the "suppressive regime"..
    Did you know the leader of Georgia is a democratic elected maniac just like the leader of Iran. Complete mental case, just like Ahmedinajan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    It was an INTRA-Georgian conflict. Russia went in and has now effectively taken away two parts of Georgia, including nearly one half of its coastline.
    And now there is peace and not intra or any other Georgia conflict. The murder of their own people has stopped.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Read UNSC resolutions 678 and 1441 VERY CLOSELY! Then, come back to me.
    Lol, none of them justifies war.. You know this, you can be as technical as you want, but you also know there was no security council approval for the war, and you also know France didn't join your war efforts because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You are being silly now. As for the missiles in Poland, those are CLEARLy aimed at a rogue regime with a very small number of missiles. Even if they were targeted at RUssia, the sheer number of Russian missiles could overwhelm such a modest system. Furthermore, the DEFENSIVE missiles would have had NO impact on missiles targeting the US as they would cross the polar Great Circle route to North America.
    Of course they are not aimed at Russia, but then why was Russia not brought in on the plans and for approval of the system? What if Russia placed missiles in Cuba to defend them from any potential attacks? What if they placed a missile defense system in south and central America to protect those states from Cuba?
    You know the politics of the missile shield is shady, and the US broke the anti ballistic missile treaty over it, which is another point Russia is trying to make if you arent so blindly pro-American.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Is the US all good? You know better than that. I have been critical of the US when I think they are wrong. Check out the thread on the ICJ decision on the MExicans and the State of Texas. I came squarely against the US and Texas on that thread.
    I know better than that, but do you know where to find neutral ground when the news and the politics is about the US, or any of its perceived "enemies", or do you then blindly listen to US politics against those enemies, or do you indeed listen to what those "enemies" are saying? And in general you do take a very anti-Russian stand, and a very pro-US stand, and of course you do have the incredibly blind anti-Iranian stand to think of, which I think is the result of listening ONLY to the US side about things, JUST like your president do not even negotiate with Iranian politicians, a retarded way of conducting politics by your previous regime.

    Mexico and Texas and the US? Wow.. Yo for once showed a neutral way of thinking rather than blind pro-US way like you always have on this forum, and 90% of the people on this forum have?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    And if you look at my full body of posts, I am NOT always blindly pro-US. I am critical of the US and any other democracy WHEN I THINK IT IS WARRENTED. However, I am not going to blindly attack the US or any other democracy when it is NOT WARRENTED. Fair enough?
    Why arent you critical of the poor way democracy is developing in the west, the decline of real democracy and the enhancement of "circus politics exploitation of the dumb" democracy? Do you really want political elections to be about everything except politics?
    Do you really want politics do matter less than drama, scandals, tv facing time and so on? Do you want money and who has it be the most important part of an election? Do you find the two party system a functioning system? Increased political and social polarization and so on.. All these things is also increasingly happening in European democracies, and I find it horrific. I dont want so sound like a grumpy old man, but elections should definetely not be about fun and entertainment, like it has become, to accommodate all the morons of our societies.

    Elections should be about politics strictly, and everyone should have the same sponsored money to run their platform and media should be less involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    As for Chinese, it is a hard language to learn, especially the writing. But it is endlessly fascinating.
    Definitely, even Japanese seems easy in comparison.. I did try some basics of both just to get a feel, and Chinese was just incredibly difficult, even in the beginning, Japanese was comprehensible and learnable.
    But then again, I do want to learn Chinese some time, when I have the time and dedication for it, I refuse to give that up. Perhaps Japanese could be a stepping stone?
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 02-02-09 at 05:44 AM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  6. #26
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Let's see

    Did Georgia have a mutual security pact with NATO members?

    No.

    Did Georgia routinely practice with NATO members?

    No.

    Was Georgia included in meetings with NATO members?

    No.

    Was Georgia privy to the intelligence shared between NATO members?

    No.

    Did NATO members aside from the US suggest any direct military aid?

    No.

    What de-facto state are you talking about?

    Try again. And learn what NATO does and what membership includes.

    Either you have no clue or you are trying to twist facts. Most likely the latter is true, - judging from the tone, composition and meaning of your reply. If you have no clue, you may try to educate yourself a bit and then I would fill in blanks, if needed; your path of twisting, cherry picking and misrepresenting facts as well as putting up a strawman is boring, to say at least.

  7. #27
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    And in general you do take a very anti-Russian stand, and a very pro-US stand, and of course you do have the incredibly blind anti-Iranian stand to think of, which I think is the result of listening ONLY to the US side about things, JUST like your president do not even negotiate with Iranian politicians, a retarded way of conducting politics by your previous regime.

    Why arent you critical of the poor way democracy is developing in the west, the decline of real democracy and the enhancement of "circus politics exploitation of the dumb" democracy? Do you really want political elections to be about everything except politics?


    Do you really want politics do matter less than drama, scandals, tv facing time and so on? Do you want money and who has it be the most important part of an election? Do you find the two party system a functioning system? Increased political and social polarization and so on.. All these things is also increasingly happening in European democracies, and I find it horrific. I dont want so sound like a grumpy old man, but elections should definetely not be about fun and entertainment, like it has become, to accommodate all the morons of our societies.

    You consider him to be a very pro-US, I consider him to be anti-the US. As you are concerned about ‘’the decline of real democracy and the enhancement of "circus politics exploitation of the dumb" democracy’’ I am concerned about the same things in the country I live and love, - the one I want to be the greatest in the world, - the US.


    Recently I attended a party with a number of older former Soviet citizens and now Americans. One of them asked to shut off Obama TV because “ I had enough of this in the USSR”, and others agreed – yes, it is like in the USSR. I am mostly concerned about the US turning into the USSR, about the stupid notion that we are Americans, nothing can happen here, - well it is already happening. This country used to stand against the worst evil – Communism spread by the USSR. The USSR undertook tremendous efforts of spreading the ideas Communism stands on in the West and in the US, and now the West and the US are falling to these ideas, when Russia is recovering from them and rejecting them. It is not that I am pro-Russian, I am pro-American, as it used to be the land of brave and free, the country which invented Ford T, rock-n-roll, Corvette, the right to bear arm, in God we trust, Windows, Apple and freedom of pursuit of happiness, the country Soviets used to defect to from the oppression of Communism.

    He is not pro-US, not at all,

    I like ‘’all the morons of our societies’’ characterization.

  8. #28
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    2. Clearly any view that Russia is the aggressor for responding aggressively to the US anti-missile shield in eastern Europe is anti-Russian and bias for the US and the west.
    Anti-Russian, but pro-reality. The missile shield in Europe has no effect whatsoever on Russian deterrent, and the Russians know it.

    5. The US stubbornness over the missile shield even when Russia threatens with nuclear war as retaliation is clearly a bad move from the US, not Russia.
    Yes.. threatening nuclear war over a missle system that doesnt affect you is a --brilliant-- idea.


    Of course, the Russians understand they are dealing with countries led by milktoast, and so maybe their baseless sabre-rattling will benefit them.

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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Anti-Russian, but pro-reality. The missile shield in Europe has no effect whatsoever on Russian deterrent, and the Russians know it.


    Yes.. threatening nuclear war over a missle system that doesnt affect you is a --brilliant-- idea.


    Of course, the Russians understand they are dealing with countries led by milktoast, and so maybe their baseless sabre-rattling will benefit them.
    So far your baseless sabre-rattling has not benefited you, but Russia. Keep on rattling, while Russia is having its milktoast.

  10. #30
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    Re: Nato wary of Russian treaty plan

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    So far your baseless sabre-rattling has not benefited you but Russia.
    I'm pretty sure you know what you're referring to.
    I'm just as sure you're the only one.

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