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Thread: Obama finds room for lobbyists

  1. #231
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    Re: Obama finds room for lobbyists

    I don't know if Obama lied or changed his mind. It is impossble to tell. A broken promise isn't always a lie. Either way, it's not something I like about him, though the latter is more palatable.

    I do know this: I dislike lying more when the lying tends to cause me to choose to do something I normally would not choose. In this case his 'lie' would have enticed me to vote for him (a little bit), except that I already had decided to. So, I don't feel betrayed, partly because I never really cared that much whether he kept all lobbyists out of his government, though I do care alot whether he vastly reduces their influence.

    If someone feels betrayed because they thought about voting for him due to the broken promise, I can fully understand the outrage generated by his 'betrayal' However, the reason this isn't going to get much traction, in the way that Bush's lies did, is not so much as hypocrisy (though that is an element), but because nobody feels really betrayed.

    I did feel betrayed by Bush right off the mark, even though I didn't vote for him. He claimed he was a uniter, and I really believed he believed that, and that he would take steps to bring sides together. I liked him more because of the claim. As soon as he started picking his cabinet and other appointees, I could see that it wasn't going to be the case. We could begin arguing about whether Bush is actually a liar or not, but that would be beside the point. The point is that I perceived him as such, right or wrong, and felt betrayal due to it.


    And it kept happening. Feeling betrayed time after time, with each perceived deception. That is why I hated Bush lies. The lies actually did manipulate and confuse me about things I cared about. They didn't have the ring of truth, I had to think through them, investigate whether he was telling the truth, and kept finding that, in my view, he came up short.

    I am disappointed that Obama didn't know better than to make his campaign promise. He may have deliberately lied in order to capture votes, and that would be even more disappointing. But, I just don't feel betrayed by this 'lie'. In the end it does matter what the lie is about. And it should.

    If that makes me a hypocrite, then I guess so. I'll take the label. But, I do think the label is being bandied about as an ineffective means to attempt get people to hate Obama like they did Bush.

    Here is the problem, though: Bush was easy to hate, because he was such a jerk in his lies, so arrogant, so brazen, so out of touch. You're mistaken if you think people hated Bush simply due to the lies. It was the whole package, and each thing fed passion into the other. This isn't going to happen with Obama right now.

    But, I am sure you'll all keep ardently trying.

  2. #232
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    Re: Obama finds room for lobbyists

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    I don't know if Obama lied or changed his mind. It is impossble to tell. A broken promise isn't always a lie. Either way, it's not something I like about him, though the latter is more palatable.

    I do know this: I dislike lying more when the lying tends to cause me to choose to do something I normally would not choose. In this case his 'lie' would have enticed me to vote for him (a little bit), except that I already had decided to. So, I don't feel betrayed, partly because I never really cared that much whether he kept all lobbyists out of his government, though I do care alot whether he vastly reduces their influence.

    If someone feels betrayed because they thought about voting for him due to the broken promise, I can fully understand the outrage generated by his 'betrayal' However, the reason this isn't going to get much traction, in the way that Bush's lies did, is not so much as hypocrisy (though that is an element), but because nobody feels really betrayed.

    I did feel betrayed by Bush right off the mark, even though I didn't vote for him. He claimed he was a uniter, and I really believed he believed that, and that he would take steps to bring sides together. I liked him more because of the claim. As soon as he started picking his cabinet and other appointees, I could see that it wasn't going to be the case. We could begin arguing about whether Bush is actually a liar or not, but that would be beside the point. The point is that I perceived him as such, right or wrong, and felt betrayal due to it.


    And it kept happening. Feeling betrayed time after time, with each perceived deception. That is why I hated Bush lies. The lies actually did manipulate and confuse me about things I cared about. They didn't have the ring of truth, I had to think through them, investigate whether he was telling the truth, and kept finding that, in my view, he came up short.

    I am disappointed that Obama didn't know better than to make his campaign promise. He may have deliberately lied in order to capture votes, and that would be even more disappointing. But, I just don't feel betrayed by this 'lie'. In the end it does matter what the lie is about. And it should.

    If that makes me a hypocrite, then I guess so. I'll take the label. But, I do think the label is being bandied about as an ineffective means to attempt get people to hate Obama like they did Bush.

    Here is the problem, though: Bush was easy to hate, because he was such a jerk in his lies, so arrogant, so brazen, so out of touch. You're mistaken if you think people hated Bush simply due to the lies. It was the whole package, and each thing fed passion into the other. This isn't going to happen with Obama right now.

    But, I am sure you'll all keep ardently trying.

    A POTUS,any POTUS who destroys America the way Bush did ,( I`m a two time Bush suppoter), deserves the expressions of hate he got at the inaugueration. Not just the boo`s ,but the shun ,the silence,and the bitter glares. May he rot in hell ,and if Barry doesn`t change his ways ,they will both be butt budies of Satans in the end.

  3. #233
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    Re: Obama finds room for lobbyists

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Obama is a politician and as a politician he cannot be held to his literal word but should be held to the ideals of what he says. It's easy to say when you are not President, "I will do X" as an absolute, only to find out doing exactly that without any budging is not really feasible.
    You don't take politicians at their literal word? I know you guys think he's the Messiah and all but that doesn't mean he's been speaking in parables the whole time. I wonder what a Democrat would have said were a Republican to use this same justification for the WMD debacle.

    Shrill Democrat: Bush LIED about WMD!!!

    Republican apologist: You shouldn't have taken him at his literal word. He meant more as a metaphor, or perhaps it was an allegory...

    Democrat placated: Mmmmm, this is a valid point. Perhaps Bush should be given a pass on this one.

    ROFL!!! Yea right!

    Democrats have gotten so used to dishing it out that they can’t take it anymore. Obama is the President of the United States…he will be scrutinized and scrutinized thoroughly.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    And if I went through your post history, would I find you defending George Bush when he lied about WMD, about Iraq's nuclear capability, about torture, about issues that actually cost the lives of American servicemen? Probably. I find your outrage over a misplaced statement about the hiring of lobbyists curious, considering how much you overlooked from a Republican president.
    Oh, yes, it’s obvious I’m just some neo-conservative partisan trying to unjustly smear Barack Obama. Let’s use a perusal of my post history to demonstrate this fact:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I will admit that while watching Obama's acceptance speech I became somewhat emotional. Watching all his supporters and seeing the hope and joy in their eyes made me realize what I have long forgot about this country, that, in their hearts, Americans are a good and decent people. I also felt the pain and longing of the African-American people in that crowd and I witnessed their deliverance. Seeing the tears roll down their cheeks and thinking back on all the hatred and violence they've had to endure I finally came to realize what Obama's Presidency must mean to them. So, yes, a toast to Barack Obama and his supporters; our country's destiny is now in your hands.

    "Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield, and patriot grave, to every heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
    -Abraham Lincoln
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    He's a Christian just as he says he is, and no, I don't care what mythology he ascribes to himself. I'm more concerned with his bunk economic theories.

    As an aside, I was eating in a cafeteria and watching the news (Fox) who was doing a piece on Obama not visiting the wounded troops when a black lady (employee) not so inconspicuously made her way over to my table and began a light rant on how much she disliked Obama; for some reason she thought I would be an appropriate recipient for her angst.

    Her reasons for not liking Obama were certainly not the most intelligent ones I've ever heard but the one that I found most disturbing was her classification of him as a Muslim. It's funny that a libertarian would find himself sticking up for Obama as much as I've had to do during this election, but given the amount of ignorant people in the world it's not really that surprising either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Obama called a female reporter sweetie!? The horror....the...horror...

    Yet another shining example of irrelevant partisan hackery. If people in this forum discussed the particulars of the candidates' policies as much as they bickered over this type of meaningless nonsense we might actually get to the bottom of things.

    What's next? Obama pees on toilet seat? McCain sneezes and doesn't cover mouth? You guys are rich.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/archiv...post1057618903
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I do not believe either Bush or Obama were or are "war mongers". Bush did what he felt was right for America. He acted on bad intelligence in Iraq and for that he must be held accountable; however, this does not translate to him being a liar or a war monger as so many leftists like to claim.

    As for Obama, he is effecting a continuation of previous policy. Thus far I haven't heard anything which would make me believe that he is either a coward or a war monger. It seems he will take a pragmatic approach towards Iraq and Afghanistan. I think Obama will be successful in terms of foreign policy. He will strengthen our relations with other countries but I don't see him capitulating either. It's just too bad that while he's executing pragmatic policy abroad he'll be gutting our economy from the inside out.
    What wretched things to say about Barack Obama! How terribly unjust! You’ve exposed me for what I am…bravo, sir, bravo…

    Now let’s comeback to Earth shall we, and partake in reality.

    Contrary to what you might think, I am not a hypocrite like some other people on this board (Obamaphiles). I am simply an objective observer of reality who doesn’t allow partisan stupidity to cloud my judgment. I have remained consistent in my principles while a member of this forum, and I’ve demonstrated this by criticizing Bush, McCain, and Obama when they violated those principles. I do not exercise any double standards in politics as the idea of “party loyalty” is one of the most ridiculous notions I can conceive of. I am loyal to three things and three things only; my family, my friends, and my principles.

    Barack Obama perpetrated a very substantial falsehood about his platform and used it to undermine his opponent’s campaign. He scathingly criticized John McCain for associating with lobbyists and made bold assertions that lobbyists would not find a job in his White House, but within the first ten days of being the President he has done exactly that. This allows for only two possibilities:

    Either Barack Obama is willing to use dishonesty quite liberally in order to obtain and maintain power, or he is simply an idiot who didn’t understand why he was criticizing lobbyists. Since we know Barack Obama isn’t an idiot I’d say that kind of narrows it down.

    You would do well not to make assumptions about other posters or underestimate their understanding of the issues. A political forum is usually a good place to find people that are aware about politics. Next time you jump into the deep end remember to put on your floaties.

    How’s that shoe taste?

  4. #234
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    Re: Obama finds room for lobbyists

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    You don't take politicians at their literal word? I know you guys think he's the Messiah and all but that doesn't mean he's been speaking in parables the whole time. I wonder what a Democrat would have said were a Republican to use this same justification for the WMD debacle.
    Saying there are WMD's in a country and invading that country and thus sending that country into virtual anarchy and saying you won't fill your White House with lobbyists and then allowing a few exceptions are two totally different things.

    I never said Obama shouldn't be taken at his word. I said he can't. It's a sad fact and it shouldn't be accepted but it is reality.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
    - Warren Buffett

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    Re: Obama finds room for lobbyists

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Saying there are WMD's in a country and invading that country and thus sending that country into virtual anarchy and saying you won't fill your White House with lobbyists and then allowing a few exceptions are two totally different things.

    I never said Obama shouldn't be taken at his word. I said he can't. It's a sad fact and it shouldn't be accepted but it is reality.
    "sending that country into virtual anarchy " What country would that be?

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    Re: Obama finds room for lobbyists

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Saying there are WMD's in a country and invading that country and thus sending that country into virtual anarchy and saying you won't fill your White House with lobbyists and then allowing a few exceptions are two totally different things.
    Aha.
    So long as the guy that presents the lie is your guy, and the lie he presents isnt "too big" - lying is OK.
    Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

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