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Thread: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

  1. #31
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    None of this addresses the validity of what I said.
    If you can pay with cash, then you can pay with whatever replaces it.
    What if credit replaces it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Sure you will. You can choose to abide by their rules or not -- same choice that you have now.
    If every single company is doing the same thing then you don't have any choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Again:
    You can choose to abide by their rules or not -- same choice that you have right now.
    So should I take that as an acceptance of the right of health insurers to genetically profile you, and employers to use your previous arrests (not convictions) against you?

    Hell, why stop with the establishments where you use your credit card? Maybe they should ALSO use data from establishments where you paid by check or used a different credit card. And why only collect data on customers? There are hundreds of millions of POTENTIAL customers to collect data on also! Hell, let's find out where people spend CASH too! Perhaps the credit card companies can partner with private businesses, so that you'll have to give your SSN if you want to pay cash for a stick of gum at the local Speedway. After all, you still have a choice. Even if all credit card companies are collecting information on you and all other companies are supplying them with the information, you still have the choice to live in a mud hut and barter with your neighbors. As a wise man once said: It might not be as easy as you might like; there is a price for convenience.

    Is there no limit to the invasions of privacy which you will tolerate, as long as they are perpetrated by corporations instead of governments?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-29-09 at 02:25 PM.
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What if credit replaces it?
    What if a asteroid hits us and we all die?

    If every single company is doing the same thing then you don't have any choice.
    You do. You can choose to not have a credit card.
    Nothing -forces- you to have a credit card.

    So should I take that as an acceptance of the right of health insurers to genetically profile you, and employers to use your previous arrests (not convictions) against you?
    What part of "you can choose to abide by their rules or not -- same choice that you have right now" do you not understand?

    If I don't like what my health insurance company does, I get a new one.
    My choice.

    For whatever reason, you're equating "choice" with "choices that I like". Many of us living past our experience in kindergarten understand that you not liking the choices presented to you doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

  3. #33
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What if a asteroid hits us and we all die?


    :
    Cards are already replacing cash.

  4. #34
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What if a asteroid hits us and we all die?

    Are you suggesting that credit replacing cash is about as likely as an asteroid destroying the earth? Right after you just finished huffing and puffing at the idea that you don't live in the 21st century? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    You do. You can choose to not have a credit card.
    Nothing -forces- you to have a credit card.
    Credit is quickly becoming an economic necessity, as the current recession clearly demonstrates. See my previous example re: all companies feeding information about your spending habits to the credit bureaus. Nothing -forces- you not to build your own mud hut and barter with your neighbors for survival. However, that is not the way that most people in 21st century America want to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    What part of "you can choose to abide by their rules or not -- same choice that you have right now" do you not understand?

    If I don't like what my health insurance company does, I get a new one.
    My choice.
    What if ALL health insurance companies require you to submit your genetic profile?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    For whatever reason, you're equating "choice" with "choices that I like". Many of us living past our experience in kindergarten understand that you not liking the choices presented to you doesn't mean you don't have a choice.
    Many of us understand that when all companies set the same rules, you really don't have any choice if you want their product (in this case, credit). It's why monopolies and trusts are illegal.
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are you suggesting that credit replacing cash is about as likely as an asteroid destroying the earth?
    No.
    I am saying that, because of its likelyhood, your suggestion isn't worth discussing

    Credit is quickly becoming an economic necessity
    Nothing -forces- you to have a credit card.
    You CHOOSE to have a credit card.

    What if ALL health insurance companies require you to submit your genetic profile?
    Presuming that I do not agree with this to the point of not being willing to accept that condition, then I'd choose to not have insurance.
    Choice, see...

    Many of us understand that when all companies set the same rules, you really don't have any choice if you want their product...
    You have a choice:
    -Choose to accept the requirements necessary to get what you want
    -Choose to not get what you want.
    Not liking the choices presented to you doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No.
    I am saying that, because of its likelyhood, your suggestion isn't worth discussing
    If you can't see that credit will soon replace cash (and already is), then I really don't know what to say to you, other than you're completely wrong as usual. If you are this far removed from technological reality, then you have very little insight to offer in this debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Nothing -forces- you to have a credit card.
    You CHOOSE to have a credit card.
    Nothing -forces- you not to forsake all ties with the civilized world. You CHOOSE to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Presuming that I do not agree with this to the point of not being willing to accept that condition, then I'd choose to not have insurance.
    Choice, see...
    I can only take solace in knowing that REAL conservatives aren't as fond of giant corporations controlling their lives as you are. You'd never accept the GOVERNMENT doing these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    You have a choice:
    -Choose to accept the requirements necessary to get what you want
    -Choose to not get what you want.
    Not liking the choices presented to you doesn't mean you don't have a choice.
    So you're against all monopoly and trust laws too? If you don't want to pay eight bucks per gallon for gasoline (if Shell-BP-Speedway-Amoco-Marathon-Mobil-Citgo-Exxon agree to set $8 as a price floor) then you can always just go without gasoline. It's their choice to set their prices as they want, and your choice to pay it or not. Right?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-29-09 at 03:13 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    By the same logic, do you have a problem with them charging blacks higher interest rates, since blacks have lower credit scores on average? Should their be a box on the credit card application to mark your ethnicity, or should your banker just make his best guess?
    That is illegal, as it clearly violates all sorts of civil rights legislation because it is making a lending decision based explicitly and entirely on race. I don't think that's at all the same thing as making lending decisions based in some small part on some information that the company already has access to that in some ways could kind of be related to race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. Maybe Acme Children's Hospital is one of the places on their ****list of places where low-credit people shop. In fact, it probably is.
    And again, it would be stupid for a credit card company to stop giving credit to a person with a great financial history simply because they spend their money at a place where other low-credit people do. In fact, I think that would be so stupid, that I doubt credit companies will give that information much weight at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    That also gives the credit card co. access to medical records if the card is used.
    What? How do you figure?

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    Yeah that's a very good point, you use your credit card for medical bills which would allow them to take a pretty good guess at your health.

    Like say a 15,000$ bill from The Cancer Ward for People Who Will Die Soon might indicate a future inability to make payments.
    They already have that exact same information. They're not collecting anything more than they already have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Those records are mostly A) for the consumer's convenience, and B) for their statistical data. When they actually try to modify consumer behavior then they have crossed the line. It's one thing to punish people for not paying their bill on time and holding a big balance on their credit card. It's another thing to punish responsible people for using the card at a hospital, or a marriage counselor, or even a strip club...ESPECIALLY when they won't tell the consumers where they can and can't use the card without incurring a penalty.
    Again, I highly doubt they'll be significantly punishing people because of where they shop, because as everyone has pointed out, the correlation is very low. Of course, the fact that it's not that useful doesn't mean it's not useful at all.

    I think that people who purchase Hyundai Sonata's probably have better histories of making payments than people who purchase Cadillac Escalades. Shouldn't a company be able to use that information in determining what type of risk they're facing when they make the loans to purchase those vehicles?

    You act as though access to credit is just any fungible product with an endless array of options available. If this is not banned, in a few years it will be impossible to get a credit card that doesn't do these things. And if you allow this, then the credit system will become progressively more and more invasive.
    If it turns out to be that big a deal and to really affect people, I have absolutely no doubt that Congress will pass laws regulating this. I just don't see the need for knee-jerk action before we have any inkling that this will cause harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Not really.

    If I use my credit card in a bad part of town, or to buy 1000 kg of lard, then they could in theory raise my rates or cut my credit, because I have shown "bad judgement" of some sort, depending on what they see as "bad judgement".

    The lard could mean I am fat and have health problems. That I am starting a burger joint that they are not aware off does not come into the picture.

    The bad part of town, could mean I either frequent the place or come from the place or know someone there.. either way, I am putting myself in danger, which boosts the risk for the company. It could be that I just happen to need gas, the station was in that area...

    In principle there is no difference between a credit card company using my spending habits or personal information as I mentioned.. only real difference is that the later is more accurate so to say, but both punish me for my way of life.. or rather how they "see" how I use my life.

    Profiling, while useful, can also be very dangerous.
    And again, I doubt the company is going to tank your credit score (or even change it) based on those individual examples. As so many people have pointed out, this isn't a perfect metric. It doesn't have to be.
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So you're against all monopoly and trust laws too? If you don't want to pay eight bucks per gallon for gasoline (if Shell-BP-Speedway-Amoco-Marathon-Mobil-Citgo-Exxon agree to set $8 as a price floor) then you can always just go without gasoline. It's their choice to set their prices as they want, and your choice to pay it or not. Right?
    Is there any indication that the credit card companies are conspiring to implement this in violation of anti-trust laws? If not, then why don't people just choose a different card provider?
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  9. #39
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That is illegal, as it clearly violates all sorts of civil rights legislation because it is making a lending decision based explicitly and entirely on race. I don't think that's at all the same thing as making lending decisions based in some small part on some information that the company already has access to that in some ways could kind of be related to race.
    I realize that, but my point is that there's really no fundamental difference. Both involve profiling the debtor based on the financial characteristics of OTHER members of his group...whether they be African-Americans or marriage counseling customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    And again, it would be stupid for a credit card company to stop giving credit to a person with a great financial history simply because they spend their money at a place where other low-credit people do. In fact, I think that would be so stupid, that I doubt credit companies will give that information much weight at all.
    But as you said:
    It's another way for credit card companies to assess the risk involved in lending cardholders credit. I see no reason why they shouldn't be entitled to use whatever information they have available in making their decisions.
    The credit card companies likely feel the same way, and will use any and all information available to them to assess risk, as long as it is legal to do so. I wouldn't count on them not giving it any weight...especially if it leads to even MORE invasive risk-assessment techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    Again, I highly doubt they'll be significantly punishing people because of where they shop, because as everyone has pointed out, the correlation is very low. Of course, the fact that it's not that useful doesn't mean it's not useful at all.

    I think that people who purchase Hyundai Sonata's probably have better histories of making payments than people who purchase Cadillac Escalades. Shouldn't a company be able to use that information in determining what type of risk they're facing when they make the loans to purchase those vehicles?
    Sure. But the key difference is that in your example, the risk-assessment is limited to the loan for the product in question. On the other hand, I don't think a person who drives up to the bank in a Cadillac Escalade to get a home loan or a credit card should be penalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    If it turns out to be that big a deal and to really affect people, I have absolutely no doubt that Congress will pass laws regulating this. I just don't see the need for knee-jerk action before we have any inkling that this will cause harm.
    Such processes are always rapid enough to invade privacy, but gradual enough that by the time Congress notices the perpetrators will be able to argue that it's essential to their business.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    And again, I doubt the company is going to tank your credit score (or even change it) based on those individual examples. As so many people have pointed out, this isn't a perfect metric. It doesn't have to be.
    It sets a very ugly precedent for corporations to invade privacy while the government stands by and does nothing...health insurance companies requiring you to submit your DNA, prospective employers checking to see if you've been arrested (even if you weren't convicted), internet service providers monitoring your web history and your emails, etc.
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    Re: Where you use credit cards may affect your score

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If you can't see that credit will soon replace cash (and already is), then I really don't know what to say to you....
    If your argument had a leg to stand on, then you WOULD know what to say to me...

    other than you're completely wrong as usual.
    Keep thinking that. See below.

    Nothing -forces- you not to forsake all ties with the civilized world. You CHOOSE to do so.
    You say that as if it nullifies my statement.
    The fact that you have to revert to such silliness indicates that you recognize that you cannot counter what I said.

    I can only take solace in knowing that REAL conservatives aren't as fond of giant corporations controlling their lives as you are. You'd never accept the GOVERNMENT doing these things.
    Again:
    You say that as if it nullifies my statement.
    The fact that you have to revert to such silliness indicates that you recognize that you cannot counter what I said.

    So you're against all monopoly and trust laws too?
    Nothing in my sstatement logically leads to this conclusion.
    As above, the fact that you have to revert to such silliness indicates that you recognize that you cannot counter what I said.

    Given that, we're done here. I hope you have a great day.

    But, one final tidbit for you to ponder:
    Having the freedom to choose doesn't in any way mean you have the right to expect choices that you like.
    Once you accept that truth, you'll feel much better.

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