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House Passes 2009 SCHIP Bill

It's stunning to me that smokers would call nonsmokers irrational/illogical. Umm, I'm not the one with an addiction to a substance that is slowly killing me. :doh

Living is slowly killing you.

Its illogical because you are forcing someone who you believe is making a poor decision to pay for someone else who is making poor decisions.
 
I just cannot fathom allowing some object (nicotine) to have that much of a control on me. I really can't. It bewilders me.

You can see it as control I suppose.

However, I also enjoy shooting(smoking). There is a range(store) close to my house (about 10 minute drive) but the people are assholes(government). So instead of patronizing that business(local stores that have the ridiculous taxes in place) I instead drive a bit longer to go to a range with more acceptable terms.

I could make many many more comparisons if you would like ;)
 
You can see it as control I suppose.

However, I also enjoy shooting(smoking). There is a range(store) close to my house (about 10 minute drive) but the people are assholes(government). So instead of patronizing that business(local stores that have the ridiculous taxes in place) I instead drive a bit longer to go to a range with more acceptable terms.

I could make many many more comparisons if you would like ;)

Nah. I still wouldn't get it. ;)
 
That's right. You heard it correctly. The Federal government is about to put a 61 cent tax on each pack of cigarettes in order to pay for the SCHIP program. Taxes will also be levied on cigars, smokeless tobacco, and all other tobacco products. This means that, if you are a smoker, or if you chew, the government is going to take more money out of your pocket and give it to someone else.

Now Bush had his problems (a whole crapload of them), but at least he vetoed this theft of money from taxpayers last year after Congress passed it. But there is a new moneygrubber in town, and his name is Obama.

Article is here.

An excellent editorial about what SCHIP means for smokers is here
.

The Senate is taking up the bill right now, and if you are against the Federal government redistributing YOUR money to others, now is the time to let your Senator know that a vote for this bill means one less vote for him when he comes up for reelection.
Every drag off a cig or pinch of dip costs me money in hospital and insurance bills. My tax dollars go to cover their COPD, Emphizema, bronchitis heart disease... So go ahead and bitch about the tax on smokers and I'll bitch about paying for their health issues because of tobacco. Who's right?
 
Every drag off a cig or pinch of dip costs me money in hospital and insurance bills. My tax dollars go to cover their COPD, Emphizema, bronchitis heart disease... So go ahead and bitch about the tax on smokers and I'll bitch about paying for their health issues because of tobacco. Who's right?

How do your tax dollars go to them? I have to pay for my own health insurance. If I smoke my premiums are higher. That is, I pay for the increased risk myself.
 
How do your tax dollars go to them? I have to pay for my own health insurance. If I smoke my premiums are higher. That is, I pay for the increased risk myself.

I wish all health insurance was like that. Mine is not, and I work with a woman who is at least 400 pounds and got her insurance company (the same as mine) to buy her some machine that cost $10,000 because of an infection in her leg that is worsened by her obesity. It pisses me off.
 
I wish all health insurance was like that. Mine is not, and I work with a woman who is at least 400 pounds and got her insurance company (the same as mine) to buy her some machine that cost $10,000 because of an infection in her leg that is worsened by her obesity. It pisses me off.

Yea, my dad's is like that. He worked in a company with a few hundred people and whenever a large claim was paid everyone elses premiums went up the next year. Premature babies are expensive!
 
I wish all health insurance was like that. Mine is not, and I work with a woman who is at least 400 pounds and got her insurance company (the same as mine) to buy her some machine that cost $10,000 because of an infection in her leg that is worsened by her obesity. It pisses me off.


I read this:

I'm pissed because some fat lady (who doesn't deserve health care because she's so fat) is getting health care.

WUT??

:confused:
 
I also believe that which is another reason I'm for SCHIP. I think it will help guide us to that next step.

Why is Nationalized Health Care a great thing to have?

I have no choice. I don't want it nor do I want to pay for it.
Why do individuals like yourself have to force people to participate when they don't want to?
 
Like fruits and vegetables? I can see a tax on things like transgendered fats.

a fat tax is already on the table in some countries, though I don't believe anyone's had the nerve to establish one yet.

In December 2003, The World Health Organization proposed that nations consider taxing junk foods to encourage people to make healthier food choices. According to the WHO report, "Several countries use fiscal measures to promote availability of and access to certain foods; others use taxes to increase or decrease consumption of food; and some use public funds and subsidies to promote access among poor communities to recreational and sporting facilities."

Bruce Silverglade, director of legal affairs for the Center for Science in the Public Interest, said his nonprofit nutrition advocacy organization welcomed the recommendations and has spent years fighting for measures like a Junk Food Tax. The proposal got even more traction when New York Assemblyman Felix Ortiz proposed taxes on junk food and entertainment contributing to sedentary lifestyles to fund nutrition and exercise programs.

Other advocates of the tax point to the effect taxes have had on alcohol and tobacco use. Five studies published between 1981 and 1998 found that drinking declined as the price of alcohol increased. The same holds for tobacco. In California in 1988, Proposition 99 increased the state tax by 25 cents per cigarette pack and allocated a minimum of 20% of revenue to fund anti-tobacco education. From 1988 to 1993, the state saw tobacco use decline by 27%, three times better than the U.S. average.

sometimes I feel like this world is getting stupid to live in and I wish we had others to choose from.

source
 
Why is Nationalized Health Care a great thing to have?

Some of the bonus' for me are:

  • Overall, we have healthier Americans.
  • Not as many people die from preventable diseases.
  • People don't end up in bankruptcy (or worse) because of medical bills


I have no choice. I don't want it nor do I want to pay for it.
Why do individuals like yourself have to force people to participate when they don't want to?

I don't think I, personally, am forcing anything on anyone. NHC seems to me to be the next step.


In the 80's many of our mental health institutions were shut down. We, nationally, closed the door on some of our most needy citizens and literally put them in the streets.

Insurance companies switched their role from administrator of claims to dictators of eligibility.

Insurance premiums have risen in leaps and bounds. Employers don't offer health care plans or offer plans that leave individuals and families in the poor house. We've been walking down a path where health care is becoming a luxury of the rich.

Our society has let down the most fragile in our nation; the children, the elderly and the mentally ill. As more and more people get caught in the squeeze, voices get louder.

It just seems to me that it's the natural progression of things. The pendulum can only swing one way for so long before gravity takes over.
 
Some of the bonus' for me are:

  • Overall, we have healthier Americans.
  • Not as many people die from preventable diseases.
  • People don't end up in bankruptcy (or worse) because of medical bills

None of these things are guaranteed under a government sponsored medical system. Except for bankruptcy.
Then you have the problem with the government run system becoming nearly bankrupt.
They will eventually cut services and access because it is impossible to provide full medical services to everyone without humongous tax increases.

Then because doctors, hospitals, and medical clinics will become overwhelmed with patients and you will have to wait. Waiting will cause deaths all by itself because they couldn't get the treatment they need.

At the moment the market is rationing services more effectively.



I don't think I, personally, am forcing anything on anyone. NHC seems to me to be the next step.

Well whatever you want to call it, you are asking the government to force people who do not want their service to participate. You are also asking them to force the rest of us to pay for it.

In the 80's many of our mental health institutions were shut down. We, nationally, closed the door on some of our most needy citizens and literally put them in the streets.

I haven't heard much else about it. Although I never researched it, you would think they would be many problems because of it. Maybe they adapted to a normal life in stead of being stuck in an institution forever.

Insurance companies switched their role from administrator of claims to dictators of eligibility.

Insurance premiums have risen in leaps and bounds. Employers don't offer health care plans or offer plans that leave individuals and families in the poor house. We've been walking down a path where health care is becoming a luxury of the rich.

People should pay for doctors visits out of pocket much like car repairs. In our current system people are removed from the true price of services. Insurance should only cover expensive surgical services like car insurance.
. A lot of state governments set the floor on prices and people go to the hospital for the dumbest reasons.

Premiums are rising but they are affordable. If people are buying it then it is affordable.

Our society has let down the most fragile in our nation; the children, the elderly and the mentally ill. As more and more people get caught in the squeeze, voices get louder.

It just seems to me that it's the natural progression of things. The pendulum can only swing one way for so long before gravity takes over.

Our society has no responsibility for other peoples children. These kids parents let them down not anyone else is responsible for providing these kids with anything. How about we not pay for pregnancy for people who can't afford it. That may solve the problem.

The natural progression is to examine the problem rationally not jump to conclusions. Deregulation and not requiring the insurance companies to pay for pregnancy might be a good start.
 
I think we should tax the air we breath seeings how we all need it,that way we all get taxed.Oh Boy! more taxes.
And as for nationalized health care pleeeeeease!
The federal government can't run itself, much less another dept.
Do you think that our politicians will use the same health care system???
What are you going to say, when they tell all females able to have kids,that are unmarried,they must take mandatory birth control ,because they are bankrupting the system.
The more you give up now.The more they will take from you later.
 
I think we should tax the air we breath seeings how we all need it,that way we all get taxed.Oh Boy! more taxes.
And as for nationalized health care pleeeeeease!
The federal government can't run itself, much less another dept.
Do you think that our politicians will use the same health care system???
What are you going to say, when they tell all females able to have kids,that are unmarried,they must take mandatory birth control ,because they are bankrupting the system.
The more you give up now.The more they will take from you later.

No matter how many times you point this out to people they still fly on by it thinking that for some reason we will do it right.

As if the United States government has some magical powers to make it work.
Later when services are cut back and the wait to have life saving surgery is many weeks instead of immediately people will say "I never saw that coming."

Its very frustrating trying to convince people that their utopia's are unattainable.
 
Go back through this topic and see the detrimental properties of driving vs smoking.

IF you REALLY want to get into it I'm sure we could accomodate you :roll:

Point being, you can drive, I can smoke. We both make those choices, you seem to think that your choice is more important.

My choice is more important. I don't endanger other people's lives to feel good. If my actions endanger other people's lives like second hand smoke does, I do it because it is necessary to properly function in society. That being said, I'm a liberal so I'll compromise with you. I'll only drive a hybrid or electric vehicle if you only smoke something that doesn't pollute the atmosphere or endanger people nearby. What say you?
 
Trying to engage emotional babies in a logical context is an act of circular futility. They do not like something, therefore it is alright to demonize and attack the object of their infantile scorn. Like babies, they are incapable of dealing with their problems without the assistance of some third party; mature conflict resolution is out of the question and any attempts to bring about a sensible and logical dialogue will merely confuse and bewilder them, resulting in yet more emotional outbursts and soiled diapers.

Being upset is enough in and of itself to justify their infringement upon other individual's rights. In an attempt to delude themselves into believing they are right they will proffer a panoply of logical fallacies, red herrings, and appeals to emotion, but this type of behavior is to be expected from infants. However, when something they like is demonized and targeted by other equally stupid and emotional babies they will immediately resent this egregious violation of their individual sovereignty and demand justice be done with alacrity and expediency.

This is the modus operandi of babies. Learn and learn it well...our country is full of them.
 
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That's right. You heard it correctly. The Federal government is about to put a 61 cent tax on each pack of cigarettes in order to pay for the SCHIP program. Taxes will also be levied on cigars, smokeless tobacco, and all other tobacco products. This means that, if you are a smoker, or if you chew, the government is going to take more money out of your pocket and give it to someone else.

Now Bush had his problems (a whole crapload of them), but at least he vetoed this theft of money from taxpayers last year after Congress passed it. But there is a new moneygrubber in town, and his name is Obama.

Article is here.

An excellent editorial about what SCHIP means for smokers is here
.

The Senate is taking up the bill right now, and if you are against the Federal government redistributing YOUR money to others, now is the time to let your Senator know that a vote for this bill means one less vote for him when he comes up for reelection.

Dano , moneygrubber doesn`t get it done anymore. We are so F**ked by those who love the stuff more than anything,...people who would sell their children for a small bag of the stuff,...people without souls,...people who would enslave entire continents for profit, that they must be called MONEY WHORES is apparent. Next...,"The Fat Tax", and then, If you try to sit they will tax your seat, if you try to walk they will tax your feet, if you try to drive they will tax the street...(oops thats alraedy been done). Yes taxation will get way the f**k out of control again. These are real democratic "tax and spend politicians" / senate, congress, and POTUS. Thanks for the post Dano.
 
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I think we should tax the air we breath seeings how we all need it,that way we all get taxed.Oh Boy! more taxes.
And as for nationalized health care pleeeeeease!
The federal government can't run itself, much less another dept.
Do you think that our politicians will use the same health care system???
What are you going to say, when they tell all females able to have kids,that are unmarried,they must take mandatory birth control ,because they are bankrupting the system.
The more you give up now.The more they will take from you later.

RUDE, I`m all over that problem....I speak out. Give me liberty or give me death..."No fly list" here, if you take away any more of my constitutional rights. I was willing to die in battle for the rights and freedoms they stealthily take away day by day. Im still ready to fight and die. It has been taken to the streets before ,by other JUST causes. At this point in time society in America has been adolled by revisionist history and falacious education sysytems...,"Now children this is the truth". When the pain and missery,(homelessness and hunger touch the senses),gets to a certain point,it will substantiate a re-education into whats happening under their noses and the people may regrow their spines. I don`t want it that way, But our government and the MONEY WHORES do. God made 7 continents ,and then some, to provide the vitality of diversity in all things. We globalized, and enslved whole continents `for profit`. The dead bodies of homes unemployeed are found daily , but not reported on the news. The rich still haven`t felt a thing ,and all efforts for those who are affected are trickle down in nature. 90% of those who suffer have no rage or opinion at all...perhaps ADOL falls short of describeing the door-mat society we have been taught to be. 4 or 5 years ago Tennessees government tried to pass a state tax in a midnight session, people encircled the capitol bldg and beat on the walls with shovels ,rakes ,and pitch forks. The bill failed.
 
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I pay a crapload of taxes for schools and I don't have kids. I don't complain, because it's in the benefit of society as a whole.

you didn't pay a dime for school when you used the service.
 
While i am not a proponent of taxation for behavioral changes, at the very least tobacco should be taxed for the health care burden it presents to the federal government every year.

I was unwilling to read through all of the 18 pages on this thread, but i am interested to know the % of people who die due to tobacco related illness receiving government medical aid.
 
While i am not a proponent of taxation for behavioral changes, at the very least tobacco should be taxed for the health care burden it presents to the federal government every year.

I was unwilling to read through all of the 18 pages on this thread, but i am interested to know the % of people who die due to tobacco related illness receiving government medical aid.

I would love to see a study proving the cost of tobacco. Seems to me the shortened life span significantly reduces the cost to government. Add in the life time of additional taxes paid by those that provide their own health care costs, and I can't help but wonder if the truth is far different then what we are led to believe.

Cutting down on food & smoke does not save your money! - The Financial Express
 
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Trying to engage emotional babies in a logical context is an act of circular futility. They do not like something, therefore it is alright to demonize and attack the object of their infantile scorn. Like babies, they are incapable of dealing with their problems without the assistance of some third party; mature conflict resolution is out of the question and any attempts to bring about a sensible and logical dialogue will merely confuse and bewilder them, resulting in yet more emotional outbursts and soiled diapers.

Being upset is enough in and of itself to justify their infringement upon other individual's rights. In an attempt to delude themselves into believing they are right they will proffer a panoply of logical fallacies, red herrings, and appeals to emotion, but this type of behavior is to be expected from infants. However, when something they like is demonized and targeted by other equally stupid and emotional babies they will immediately resent this egregious violation of their individual sovereignty and demand justice be done with alacrity and expediency.

This is the modus operandi of babies. Learn and learn it well...our country is full of them.
Ethereal for President 2012 ;)
 
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