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Thread: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Which is the whole ****ing point of this investigation! You know, the one you have erroneously label as a witch hunt. Jesus is it really that hard to understand??
    Hmmm, how to address this...

    You quoted a response that I posted to someone, you, who was arguing that Bush is guilty of obstructing justice. Your rhetorical point that a President is not allowed to obstruct justice is as close as one can get to explicitly saying he did obstruct justice. I was merely pointing out that before you can assert as much as fact you have to establish it. I was chiding you because you essentially argued that he had, in fact, obstructed justice.

    And, no, I haven't characterized it as a "witch hunt."

    I personally have explained it twice in this thread already. See post 33 and 76. You seem to have a problem with selective reading. Don't pretend the explanation doesn't exist simply because it's more convenient for you to ignore it.
    If you're so hard for an investigation why are you strongly iplying that he had obstructed justice?

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Did you read the whole darn thing, aps?
    Not the background stuff. I printed it out and read it to and from work (a 30-minute commute on subway). It's incredibly disturbing, and Mukasey would not have been able to say, "Oh, it's no big deal." He HAD to order an investigation.

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    Rove has been directed NOT to appear. Bush Lawyer Directs Rove Not to Talk to Congress | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com

    This is what doesn't make sense to me. Why isn't Rove showing up and then claiming he won't answer the questions due to executive privilege. This business of not showing up at all is just plain ridiculous.

    A judge has addressed the issue already. Why Rove and Miers (and/or their attorneys) think they are above reproach is beyond me.
    That's not how this is supposed to work. If, and that's a big "IF", Bush's EO holds water and Rove has this mysterious "absolute immunity", he has to show up and then say he has this immunity.

    I hope he doesn't show. Then Conyers can have him picked up and tossed in the klink. That's "if" the Dems have the kayunas to follow through. Then I'll get a real pix of Bush's brains behind bars!

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    That's not how this is supposed to work. If, and that's a big "IF", Bush's EO holds water and Rove has this mysterious "absolute immunity", he has to show up and then say he has this immunity.

    I hope he doesn't show. Then Conyers can have him picked up and tossed in the klink. That's "if" the Dems have the kayunas to follow through. Then I'll get a real pix of Bush's brains behind bars!

    We shall see what we shall see.
    I do too (hope they have him arrested)! I would be okay if he SHOWED up and then claimed immunity. As the judge said based on the prior subpeona--this refusal to even appear is unprecedented. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Boy, isn't it great to have Bush/Rove out of office? I sleep better at night.

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    They serve at the pleasure of the President, non-issue, non-scandal but hey, it excites the frothing masses of people like you that still think Joe Wilson has credibility.
    Your argument "The pleasure of the president" only goes so far, and IMHO, you have taken it a bit out of context. If Rove broke the law, then he should be held accountable for it. Your argument smacks of Nixon's argument "If the president does it, then it's not illegal". And we all know how far Nixon got with that argument, don't we?

    How will the courts make this determination, though, should they decide not to laugh Rove's lawyers out of the chamber? Let me bring up an extreme case. Assume that Karl Rove murdered another White House staffer in the middle of the night. Did he break the law? That's a no-brainer. Obviously he did, and he would go to prison for it. What the courts need to determine is how serious of an offense needs to be committed before it becomes a crime. When that line of thought is pursued, it becomes just as obvious that, when someone serves at the pleasure of the president, he is not above the law. Whether it is laws against murder or laws against jaywalking, laws are meant to be obeyed. Serving at the pleasure of the president does not entitle one to break the law, any more than any other American would entitled to. If Rove committed a crime, then, just like you and me, he should be held responsible.

    One more thing - The Presidential Oath of office requires that the president, along with his staffers, ENFORCE the law and UPHOLD THE CONSITUTION of the Unisted States of America. It doesn't order the Executive branch to flaunt the law, does it?
    Last edited by danarhea; 01-30-09 at 04:16 PM.
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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Hmmm, how to address this...

    You quoted a response that I posted to someone, you, who was arguing that Bush is guilty of obstructing justice. Your rhetorical point that a President is not allowed to obstruct justice is as close as one can get to explicitly saying he did obstruct justice. I was merely pointing out that before you can assert as much as fact you have to establish it. I was chiding you because you essentially argued that he had, in fact, obstructed justice.

    And, no, I haven't characterized it as a "witch hunt."
    Well, I'm sorry I accused you specifically of labeling the investigation as a "witch hunt," because you didn't use that exact phrase. But you HAVE been arguing that it's a pointless waste of taxpayer money right? So what's the difference?

    And you should see that it's impossible to produce any quote by me asserting obstruction of justice as a fact. I've been consistently saying that they should be innocent until proven guilty, but that there are reasonable grounds to have an investigation. So if you think I've been asserting it as fact, then you may have me confused with another poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    If you're so hard for an investigation why are you strongly iplying that he had obstructed justice?
    If I ever implied that then I didn't mean to (but I'd like to see which of my posts you're misinterpreting). I have held the same extremely simple position throughout this entire discussion: A crime may have been committed, therefore this investigation is legitimate and should continue to the end.

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Well, I'm sorry I accused you specifically of labeling the investigation as a "witch hunt," because you didn't use that exact phrase. But you HAVE been arguing that it's a pointless waste of taxpayer money right? So what's the difference?

    And you should see that it's impossible to produce any quote by me asserting obstruction of justice as a fact. I've been consistently saying that they should be innocent until proven guilty, but that there are reasonable grounds to have an investigation. So if you think I've been asserting it as fact, then you may have me confused with another poster.


    If I ever implied that then I didn't mean to (but I'd like to see which of my posts you're misinterpreting). I have held the same extremely simple position throughout this entire discussion: A crime may have been committed, therefore this investigation is legitimate and should continue to the end.
    I labled it a witch hunt, because they're going after Rove. He wasn't a main player in this thing, it was DoJ officials and Mary Myers office that was most involved. Trying to tie one attorney in Arkansas to Rove is as lame as it gets. I'm sure he was calling Gonzales daily to make sure he got the job, probably foaming over the phone about it. Yeah!
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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Your argument "The pleasure of the president" only goes so far, and IMHO, you have taken it a bit out of context. If Rove broke the law, then he should be held accountable for it.
    What crime or offense is Rove even alleged to have committed that warrants investigation?

    Serving at the pleasure of the president does not entitle one to break the law, any more than any other American is not entitled. If Rove committed a crime, then, just like you and me, he should be held responsible.
    No one is arguing that such an entitlement exists, are they? You kinda holding up a strawman here. Citing the President's plenary authority to supervise and direct the Executive branch is not an argument that his appointments may break the law.

    What crime is Rove alleged to have committed?

    Or is this investigation simply a fishing trip to see if something, anything at all, can be dug up?

    One more thing - The Presidential Oath of office requires that the president, along with his staffers, ENFORCE the law and UPHOLD THE CONSITUTION of the Unisted States of America. It doesn't order the Executive branch to flaunt the law, does it?
    Oh, please. Your rhetorical nonsense is just that...nonsense.

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Well, I'm sorry I accused you specifically of labeling the investigation as a "witch hunt," because you didn't use that exact phrase. But you HAVE been arguing that it's a pointless waste of taxpayer money right? So what's the difference?
    No, I have not argued that, either.

    And you should see that it's impossible to produce any quote by me asserting obstruction of justice as a fact.
    That's why I said it was an implication.

    I
    've been consistently saying that they should be innocent until proven guilty, but that there are reasonable grounds to have an investigation. So if you think I've been asserting it as fact, then you may have me confused with another poster.
    What are these reasonable grounds?

    If I ever implied that then I didn't mean to (but I'd like to see which of my posts you're misinterpreting).
    Fair enough.

    The offending quote: "The President is not allowed to obstruct justice. I wish you would address that instead of just repeating "at the pleasure of the president" 1000 more times."

    That, to me, suggested that you were arguing that the President had, in fact, obstructed justice because you were plainly stating that a President could not do so. While else state except to imply that a President had obstructed justice?

    I have held the same extremely simple position throughout this entire discussion: A crime may have been committed, therefore this investigation is legitimate and should continue to the end.
    A "crime" may have been committed? What "crime"? How do you conclude that such "crime" may have been committed?

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    Re: Karl Rove Subpoenaed By John Conyers: 'Time To Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    1) apology accepted
    2) You do know that there are far more restrictions on hiring and firing in the private sector than there are in executive appointments, right? As in, the president can fire any US attorney at any time for whatever reason, no matter what.
    3) I think I see what you mean to be saying, but I just don't understand how it supports your argument
    Actually, I believe you are wrong. The president cannot fire any US attorney at any time for whatever reason, no matter what. I believe this is the crux of the problem right?

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