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Thread: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Why is homosexuality grounds for denial of communion, yet the laws of Leviticus aren't?
    Have you ever read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church? It is clear in Church teachings that it is grounds for excommunication, for reasons Felicity already explained better than I can.
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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Then help me?
    Like I said in my earlier post. I've never walked a mile, or ten feet, or three paces, in the shoes of a Catholic follower, so part of my despising could very well be from ignorance.
    I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas that are not there. When I said Jesus ate with prostitutes, that does not mean that Jesus approved of prostitution! It simply means that the person is of value and worth despite actions that Jesus would find sinful.. Likewise--the proper Catholic attitude toward a person with same sex attraction would be to respect the person but reject the sin that he or she may commit. That is true with all types of sin. I'm a sinner. I've done horrible things in my life. And when I lived contrary to what my Church taught, good priests told me so and in doing that led me to reform my life. Yet I still sin and still need to seek the correct way. Same goes for homosexual acts--it's not the attraction that is the sin, it is engaging in the act that is sinful. People with homosexual attraction have the same opportunity to become a saint that the rest of us do--we all have to take up our cross, reject sin, and live as God designed.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Why is homosexuality grounds for denial of communion, yet the laws of Leviticus aren't?
    Christians believe that the necessity of the laws of the Old Testament (OT) were fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If you know the story of the last plague visited on the Egyptians when the Hebrews were in the bondage of slavery, then you can see why Jesus' sacrifice takes the place of that act.

    OT Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians
    NT All people are in bondage of sin

    OT Hebrews sacrificed a lamb and washed the door lintel with the blood so that death might "pass over" their family
    NT Jesus--the "lamb of God" washes away sin so that we can have eternal life

    There's all kinds of that type of representation in the OT that is fulfilled and made new in the Person of Jesus Christ.

    That's why OT "laws" are not binding upon those that accept Christ as messiah--Jesus was the once and final sacrifice that expiated (paid for) all sin past, present, and future. Christians believe all one needs to do is accept that gift and live as Christ laid out in the NT and as his apostles taught.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas that are not there. When I said Jesus ate with prostitutes, that does not mean that Jesus approved of prostitution! It simply means that the person is of value and worth despite actions that Jesus would find sinful.. Likewise--the proper Catholic attitude toward a person with same sex attraction would be to respect the person but reject the sin that he or she may commit. That is true with all types of sin. I'm a sinner. I've done horrible things in my life. And when I lived contrary to what my Church taught, good priests told me so and in doing that led me to reform my life. Yet I still sin and still need to seek the correct way. Same goes for homosexual acts--it's not the attraction that is the sin, it is engaging in the act that is sinful. People with homosexual attraction have the same opportunity to become a saint that the rest of us do--we all have to take up our cross, reject sin, and live as God designed.
    I understand. But I think not allowing someone communion does not follow under that idea. You are denying a homosexual the right to fellowship with the church because they are committing a sin. I think the Church is disgustingly wrong at that point.

    But this is something else I found in Leviticus:

    Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    So, if we are to follow the laws of the Bible then not only should the person be denied communion, but decapitated.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    HOWEVER--if you do not live as Jesus taught, then the sacrifice (which is made present at Mass and it is Jesus that we consume when we receive communion) is rejected by the person choosing to live in opposition to Christ's teaching. If you do not accept Him, it is improper to receive Him in communion. That's why a person living an active homosexual life may be denied communion.


    **I edited for clarity
    Last edited by Felicity; 01-24-09 at 10:39 PM.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I understand. But I think not allowing someone communion does not follow under that idea. You are denying a homosexual the right to fellowship with the church because they are committing a sin. I think the Church is disgustingly wrong at that point.

    But this is something else I found in Leviticus:

    Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    So, if we are to follow the laws of the Bible then not only should the person be denied communion, but decapitated.
    See--this is why I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas or don't hear what is said. I just told you why the OT law is not relevant to the Christian's life in Christ--and yet you dug through Leviticus to condemn the Church.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    See--this is why I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas or don't hear what is said. I just told you why the OT law is not relevant to the Christian's life in Christ--and yet you dug through Leviticus to condemn the Church.
    Yeah I saw that after I posted.

    My bust.
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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I understand. But I think not allowing someone communion does not follow under that idea. You are denying a homosexual the right to fellowship with the church because they are committing a sin. I think the Church is disgustingly wrong at that point.

    But this is something else I found in Leviticus:

    Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    So, if we are to follow the laws of the Bible then not only should the person be denied communion, but decapitated.
    The key is repetance. We all sin, but a Catholic truly wants to eliminate that sin. A Catholic will go to Confession, apologize for the sin, and commit themselves to doing what they can to get the sin out of their lives. We will NEVER be 100% successful, but if we earnestly try, that is what God wants from us. However, if you are living an active homosexual life, are you truly repetant for the sin that you are committing and trying to rectify that sin?
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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The key is repetance. We all sin, but a Catholic truly wants to eliminate that sin. A Catholic will go to Confession, apologize for the sin, and commit themselves to doing what they can to get the sin out of their lives. We will NEVER be 100% successful, but if we earnestly try, that is what God wants from us. However, if you are living an active homosexual life, are you truly repetant for the sin that you are committing and trying to rectify that sin?
    But that turns the conversation into a debate on whether one can "help" being gay or not.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    But that turns the conversation into a debate on whether one can "help" being gay or not.
    I have a hot temper. That is a cross I bear. I can't "help" being hot tempered, but when I act upon that inclination--I sin. Then I repent of it and truly try to live according to the gentleness that Jesus taught.

    Homosexual attraction is a cross that some people bear. It is a very difficult struggle to live according to the teachings of Christ. Again--it is not the "inclination" to be hotheaded or homosexual that is the sin--it is the act of hostility or engaging in homosexual acts that is the sin. One CAN choose to master his or her inclinations by how he or she chooses to act.

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